Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[tomh009]

I think there are a lot of opinions here, but if the goal is to make DTK a premier destination to live and play rather than just work and visit, you have to think about the daily experience any development will generate. What does it feel like to be there on the other 300 days of the year of the year.

Right. Earlier people were saying that downtown is not bustling when there isn't an event on--and Kitchener has much more than 34 events a year today. So, an auditorium would generate more "events" but many people would just go to the auditorium and then leave, so less "bustling" than actual downtown events. And a convention centre would likely be even less effective in that sense.

If we're going to spend money to get people downtown, how about subsidizing new retail businesses? Something like a three-year property tax holiday for a new retail business (maybe not including food and drink) that opens up in DTK? Enough of them open, we will start attracting more people to visit downtown, and then we can get into a virtuous spiral.

And it would cost FAR less than an auditorium or convention centre.

[clasher]

Ottawa is trying again with the Le Breton Flats thing to get the Senators downtown... not too familiar with Ottawa but I was there this summer and the downtown was dead during the weekday I was there, and pretty quiet at night too.

It's been a long time since I went to a Storm game, but the arena there didn't seem to bring much traffic to the Quebec Street mall.

It seems to me that "going out" is less of a thing than it used to be, many folks don't have the budget for a night out anymore, and alcohol consumption is apparently declining too. Concerts are extremely expensive too.

I like the Kitchener Market, but my feeling is that an arena would end up more like that.

[westwardloo]

Well, that is an easy answer. There is nothing else, but the arena near the Aud with little to no transit and very little density so not many people are walking. DTK has restaurants, shops, Rapid transit and high density around it. 

I am not saying an Arena is the only answer, but i truly believe that it is part of the answer, it guarantees 8-10k people entering the DTK core at a minimum 34 nights a year. That doesn't include the titans,  all of the concerts or other events it could host (Brier, World Juniors, Figure skating worlds).  The thing is, at the end of the day the Aud is 75 years old and will need to be replaced in the next 2 decades, why not think of it now while we still have available land DTK to incorporate a DT Arena.

So what you're saying is that if downtown is already a desirable place that people want to go, then people who go to the games will choose to be there for some time.

Which is precisely what I said, the arena won't change whether people want to be downtown, which right now, the majority of people in the city don't want to be.

8-10k people aren't just "entering" downtown. Most of them are driving downtown--even with transit 90+% will still drive.

I don't think the arena would do anything to fix the problems with downtown, it would create 34 nights (plus some concerts of whatever) of a transient population who will just drive home afterwards. The rest of the time, the place will sit empty (say at least 300 days of the year) and contribute nothing to the activation of downtown. For 300 days of the year, it will be equivalent to an empty office building.

I'm not saying that an arena shouldn't be downtown, all I'm saying is that it would do nothing to help downtown, unless downtown is already healthy and thriving. London's downtown is not healthy and thriving, but if you go around the *gag* budwiser gardens *gag*--apparently now Canada Life Place, an improvement to be sure on a non-game day (300+ days of the year), it's a ghost down, it has done nothing to active downtown. If you go on one of the 34 game days + some concert days, it's just one big traffic jam.

As an aside, I never understand why people keep saying that the Aud must be replaced. It being old doesn't mean it must be replaced, buildings can be renovated and modernized as needed, I live in a city with buildings 100s of years old.

34 nights was just a minimum OHL schedule. In reality the london arena hosts 125 - 150 events per year. That is 100-200k additional people that enter the downtown core that would not otherwise be there. It 100% changes whether people will go to dt, as they will be going to an event in the dt. Not everyone drives in and drives out, Lots of people go out for dinner before a show or a game.  I bet most dt london business owners see a bump in transactions during events at the arena / convention centre.  

The building in its current form can not be renovated to support a urban population of 1 million people without spending $150-200 million. This is a ridiculous statement that will ensure nothing ever gets done.  how many of those 100 year old buildings are arenas or stadiums? Different buildings uses have different life expectancies.

[cherrypark]

Whether or not a new arena/event centre/convention centre is worth the enormous price tag is certainly worth a debate but the premise that it wouldn't contribute to more people coming to and patronizing downtown businesses and spaces is a bit silly. If we are going to ask for people to embrace facts about densification, transit, et al. can we at least have a good faith discussion that event destinations like this do, in fact, promote business activity? Including those that already exist.

That said, I do think that some of the programming at comparable arenas would eat what is otherwise on the program at CITS. Maybe funds to build improve the CITS area and the Aud would be better off than a new location downtown (especially if a Phase 3 ION were passing by the Aud...)

[neonjoe]

Borden Station is a 750 walk from the Aud, which is further than the <500m desired for walkability. But this is still within a distance that is acceptable for an events space. It's much easier to walk 12 minutes than trudge around looking for parking or waiting to leave the parking lot. A stop on Ottawa at Eugene George Way is still around 220m away from the nearest Aud Entrance.
Comparing Rogers Centre in Toronto both of the nearest subway stations are a 950m walk away. Albeit you are walking during the summer or inside the path so the distance and time isn't as uncomfortable.
I'd say in general the current Aud Site is fine for events. OHL doesn't really have much of a big pregame/tailgating culture where the fans go and drink heavily before and after the games as some other sports do.

[danbrotherston]

Whether or not a new arena/event centre/convention centre is worth the enormous price tag is certainly worth a debate but the premise that it wouldn't contribute to more people coming to and patronizing downtown businesses and spaces is a bit silly. If we are going to ask for people to embrace facts about densification, transit, et al. can we at least have a good faith discussion that event destinations like this do, in fact, promote business activity? Including those that already exist.

That said, I do think that some of the programming at comparable arenas would eat what is otherwise on the program at CITS. Maybe funds to build improve the CITS area and the Aud would be better off than a new location downtown (especially if a Phase 3 ION were passing by the Aud...)

Nobody is suggesting that there would be zero impact on downtown businesses. We are all discussing the degree to which it affects businesses, and the otherwise lost opportunity cost of doing so.

To dismiss these points as "silly" or "ridiculous" does not a healthy debate make. It suggests that folks aren't even willing to understand the points being made here.

So what you're saying is that if downtown is already a desirable place that people want to go, then people who go to the games will choose to be there for some time.

Which is precisely what I said, the arena won't change whether people want to be downtown, which right now, the majority of people in the city don't want to be.

8-10k people aren't just "entering" downtown. Most of them are driving downtown--even with transit 90+% will still drive.

I don't think the arena would do anything to fix the problems with downtown, it would create 34 nights (plus some concerts of whatever) of a transient population who will just drive home afterwards. The rest of the time, the place will sit empty (say at least 300 days of the year) and contribute nothing to the activation of downtown. For 300 days of the year, it will be equivalent to an empty office building.

I'm not saying that an arena shouldn't be downtown, all I'm saying is that it would do nothing to help downtown, unless downtown is already healthy and thriving. London's downtown is not healthy and thriving, but if you go around the *gag* budwiser gardens *gag*--apparently now Canada Life Place, an improvement to be sure on a non-game day (300+ days of the year), it's a ghost down, it has done nothing to active downtown. If you go on one of the 34 game days + some concert days, it's just one big traffic jam.

As an aside, I never understand why people keep saying that the Aud must be replaced. It being old doesn't mean it must be replaced, buildings can be renovated and modernized as needed, I live in a city with buildings 100s of years old.

34 nights was just a minimum OHL schedule. In reality the london arena hosts 125 - 150 events per year. That is 100-200k additional people that enter the downtown core that would not otherwise be there. It 100% changes whether people will go to dt, as they will be going to an event in the dt. Not everyone drives in and drives out, Lots of people go out for dinner before a show or a game.  I bet most dt london business owners see a bump in transactions during events at the arena / convention centre.  

The building in its current form can not be renovated to support a urban population of 1 million people without spending $150-200 million. This is a ridiculous statement that will ensure nothing ever gets done.  how many of those 100 year old buildings are arenas or stadiums? Different buildings uses have different life expectancies.

If it only cost 150-200 million to renovate, that would be a fraction of the cost of a new development downtown, that being said, I suspect it would cost more to renovate, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't do so, our society is far too eager to demolish and build new.

As for the 125-150 events per year, I do not believe that it hosts 125-150 sold out events per year, I know, I used to live in London, it was pretty clear when it was empty or near empty at the arena. I don't know the specific nature of their schedule, but the arena is often very quiet.

Again, this is not a case of zero impact, this is a case of opportunity cost, and about thinking about what actually makes a place successful.

[MidTowner]

Ottawa is trying again with the Le Breton Flats thing to get the Senators downtown... not too familiar with Ottawa but I was there this summer and the downtown was dead during the weekday I was there, and pretty quiet at night too.

It's been a long time since I went to a Storm game, but the arena there didn't seem to bring much traffic to the Quebec Street mall.

It seems to me that "going out" is less of a thing than it used to be, many folks don't have the budget for a night out anymore, and alcohol consumption is apparently declining too. Concerts are extremely expensive too.

I like the Kitchener Market, but my feeling is that an arena would end up more like that.

The Sleeman Centre is about half the size of the John Labatt Centre, for instance. Which is probably appropriate given Guelph's size, but it means fewer game-goers when the Storm are playing, and fewer of the bigger-draw concert acts that London is supposedly able to attract who will supposedly cause all kinds of spin-off benefits.

From what I can tell, the Sleeman Centre doesn't generate a lot of traffic at the Quebec Street mall, but also from what I can tell, Guelph's downtown is doing pretty well and is a pretty pleasant place to spend time. Again, especially considering the city's size.

[Kodra24]

Interesting, a lot of posters on this forum hate the suburbanites but want their money, go figure

Downtown is not safe, it's still very much a work in progress - the sooner this is realized and addressed the better

This is a matter of perspective. I think downtown is safe, I walk down there with my young children all the time. Sometimes we're at risk of being struck by a car driven by someone who doesn't obey the rules, but generally there's less of that downtown than in other parts of downtown.

It is a work in progress, of course, it could get better, and everywhere is always changing.

I guess it is a matter of perspective as I definitely wouldn't bring my children there, it's funny you mention cars but not the hoards of addicts - I guess we see a different reality

[creative]

Whether or not a new arena/event centre/convention centre is worth the enormous price tag is certainly worth a debate but the premise that it wouldn't contribute to more people coming to and patronizing downtown businesses and spaces is a bit silly. If we are going to ask for people to embrace facts about densification, transit, et al. can we at least have a good faith discussion that event destinations like this do, in fact, promote business activity? Including those that already exist.

That said, I do think that some of the programming at comparable arenas would eat what is otherwise on the program at CITS. Maybe funds to build improve the CITS area and the Aud would be better off than a new location downtown (especially if a Phase 3 ION were passing by the Aud...)

Nobody is suggesting that there would be zero impact on downtown businesses. We are all discussing the degree to which it affects businesses, and the otherwise lost opportunity cost of doing so.

To dismiss these points as "silly" or "ridiculous" does not a healthy debate make. It suggests that folks aren't even willing to understand the points being made here.

34 nights was just a minimum OHL schedule. In reality the london arena hosts 125 - 150 events per year. That is 100-200k additional people that enter the downtown core that would not otherwise be there. It 100% changes whether people will go to dt, as they will be going to an event in the dt. Not everyone drives in and drives out, Lots of people go out for dinner before a show or a game.  I bet most dt london business owners see a bump in transactions during events at the arena / convention centre.  

The building in its current form can not be renovated to support a urban population of 1 million people without spending $150-200 million. This is a ridiculous statement that will ensure nothing ever gets done.  how many of those 100 year old buildings are arenas or stadiums? Different buildings uses have different life expectancies.

If it only cost 150-200 million to renovate, that would be a fraction of the cost of a new development downtown, that being said, I suspect it would cost more to renovate, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't do so, our society is far too eager to demolish and build new.

As for the 125-150 events per year, I do not believe that it hosts 125-150 sold out events per year, I know, I used to live in London, it was pretty clear when it was empty or near empty at the arena. I don't know the specific nature of their schedule, but the arena is often very quiet.

Again, this is not a case of zero impact, this is a case of opportunity cost, and about thinking about what actually makes a place successful.

This is a matter of perspective. I think downtown is safe, I walk down there with my young children all the time. Sometimes we're at risk of being struck by a car driven by someone who doesn't obey the rules, but generally there's less of that downtown than in other parts of downtown.

It is a work in progress, of course, it could get better, and everywhere is always changing.

I guess it is a matter of perspective as I definitely wouldn't bring my children there, it's funny you mention cars but not the hoards of addicts - I guess we see a different reality

Just curious as to if this is based on you visiting downtown frequently or just on what you hear about downtown. My wife and I don’t live downtown and not really in the suburbs either. I like to think of us as inbetweeners. We visit frequently in the summer for events and to walk in Victoria park. Never felt unsafe. We sometimes take our adult children downtown for dinner when they are in town They grew up here and are surprised by our downtown. And they both live in Leslieville in Toronto.

[Kodra24]

Nobody is suggesting that there would be zero impact on downtown businesses. We are all discussing the degree to which it affects businesses, and the otherwise lost opportunity cost of doing so.

To dismiss these points as "silly" or "ridiculous" does not a healthy debate make. It suggests that folks aren't even willing to understand the points being made here.


If it only cost 150-200 million to renovate, that would be a fraction of the cost of a new development downtown, that being said, I suspect it would cost more to renovate, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't do so, our society is far too eager to demolish and build new.

As for the 125-150 events per year, I do not believe that it hosts 125-150 sold out events per year, I know, I used to live in London, it was pretty clear when it was empty or near empty at the arena. I don't know the specific nature of their schedule, but the arena is often very quiet.

Again, this is not a case of zero impact, this is a case of opportunity cost, and about thinking about what actually makes a place successful.

I guess it is a matter of perspective as I definitely wouldn't bring my children there, it's funny you mention cars but not the hoards of addicts - I guess we see a different reality

Just curious as to if this is based on you visiting downtown frequently or just on what you hear about downtown. My wife and I don’t live downtown and not really in the suburbs either. I like to think of us as inbetweeners. We visit frequently in the summer for events and to walk in Victoria park. Never felt unsafe. We sometimes take our adult children downtown for dinner when they are in town They grew up here and are surprised by our downtown. And they both live in Leslieville in Toronto.

I too am an inbetweener and do go downtown for errands (bank/lawyer etc)

I have young kids and had a few run-ins by myself with strange people approaching me - to be frank if my kids were with me things would have ended up differently for the person involved and I'm sure for myself as well and I wonder about that

I mean come on, there is so much riff raff there, it's night and day compared to Uptown and I have ZERO patience and sympathy with those types of individuals - we are ALL dealing with issues and I don't need anyone coming up to me in a negative, threatening manner - I'm just sick of it

[panamaniac]

Ottawa is trying again with the Le Breton Flats thing to get the Senators downtown... not too familiar with Ottawa but I was there this summer and the downtown was dead during the weekday I was there, and pretty quiet at night too.

It's been a long time since I went to a Storm game, but the arena there didn't seem to bring much traffic to the Quebec Street mall.

It seems to me that "going out" is less of a thing than it used to be, many folks don't have the budget for a night out anymore, and alcohol consumption is apparently declining too. Concerts are extremely expensive too.

I like the Kitchener Market, but my feeling is that an arena would end up more like that.

"Downtown" as in Centretown or "downtown" as in The Market?  

[dtkvictim]

Some of these arguments in favour of a stadium (which I'm not opposed to) are basically no different than the poor arguments in favour of RTO. How many central business districts that have nothing but offices are thriving with WFH, or even before COVID how many were thriving outside of 9-5? A stadium or convention center is no different, forcing people to place they don't necessarily have an interest in being in order to get their end of the transaction. All so we can prop up a failing Subway rather than building to benefit the current and future residents (which a stadium does to a small extent, but that doesn't seem to be the justification being used in this discussion).

We need resilient diversity of uses, be it office spaces, shops, stadiums, housing, public spaces, etc.

The idea that anyone but an extreme minority of people are consciously more afraid of cars than mentally unwell or addicts is laughable. The only people I've met who bring up cars as a safety issue weighing on their decision to come and spent time downtown are already downtown (this includes myself), but are almost always at least equally as concerned about the mentally unwell population. I've never heard someone who doesn't spend time downtown raise road safety as a reason for not visiting; it's always about the same population, or about the roads not being easier to drive on (i.e. less safe). There are many places in the suburbs with far worse road safety issues than downtown that are pretty bustling. Uptown is no better than downtown in road safety but the visible homeless population is much, much smaller and the difference in street life between the two is staggering.

[tomh009]

This is a matter of perspective. I think downtown is safe, I walk down there with my young children all the time. Sometimes we're at risk of being struck by a car driven by someone who doesn't obey the rules, but generally there's less of that downtown than in other parts of downtown.

I guess it is a matter of perspective as I definitely wouldn't bring my children there, it's funny you mention cars but not the hoards of addicts - I guess we see a different reality

In nearly 10 years downtown, neither my spouse or I have been bothered by an addict or a homeless person, hoarded or otherwise. On the other hand, we see dangerous/careless driving downtown on a regular basis. (Usual panhandling aside, that is common in Kitchener as well as in other cities.)

[panamaniac]

This is a matter of perspective. I think downtown is safe, I walk down there with my young children all the time. Sometimes we're at risk of being struck by a car driven by someone who doesn't obey the rules, but generally there's less of that downtown than in other parts of downtown.

It is a work in progress, of course, it could get better, and everywhere is always changing.

I guess it is a matter of perspective as I definitely wouldn't bring my children there, it's funny you mention cars but not the hoards of addicts - I guess we see a different reality

I can't say I've ever heard of a child being harmed in public by an adult in DTK.

[neonjoe]

I’ve recently had an issue with my family uptown in the mall when we were at a Christmas event. An unwell person was shouting profanities and throwing the chairs outside of the nougat chocolate shop. I didn’t experience anything as in your face the last time I walked my daughter from central station to the GO station on Victoria. We go downtown and uptown quite often and usually never have any issues, but the recent single case in WTS does set a lot of recency bias. There’s problems everywhere but your most recent experience definitely does set your perception more so than the number of experiences.