(07-08-2019, 07:21 AM)MidTowner Wrote:

jamincan Wrote:ION is obviously nowhere near Ottawa's level of service, because what Ottawa will have is closer to a subway system than normal LRT.

Generally these sorts of comparisons don't seem particularly useful to me. The important questions are whether ION provides a meaningful improvement to transit service in KW, whether it helps redirect growth to central parts of the city, and whether it attracts more people onto transit. The choices that were made for ION's implementation were decisions that made sense in the context of Waterloo Region. Something like what Ottawa has wouldn't be possible here, and if it were proposed, wouldn't have been approved.

This is the most important bit. I don't see why tunneling here would be technically not possible, but I do know that it would not be achievable politically. We had a significant fight to get LRT; a more expensive system that involved tunnelling in some but not other parts of the line would not have achieved the necessary support.

The two cities are in completely different contexts. Many more middle-class and professional Ottawans take transit and have experienced how having buses operate in mixed traffic downtown wastes time and resources. A completely separate right of way is probably much easier to sell to them.

(07-07-2019, 10:48 PM)KevinL Wrote: It would be nice to have it sorted by September.

trainspotter139 Wrote:

Quote:Sorting out the ATP system will take longer than September. Sorting out the issues that are restricting speeds will take some time but much less time than fixing the ATP system. The two are being handled separately. It's really worth noting that even with the speed restrictions ION meets or exceeds the travel time requirements in the contract.

(07-08-2019, 07:21 AM)MidTowner Wrote: This is the most important bit. I don't see why tunneling here would be technically not possible, but I do know that it would not be achievable politically. We had a significant fight to get LRT; a more expensive system that involved tunnelling in some but not other parts of the line would not have achieved the necessary support.

The two cities are in completely different contexts. Many more middle-class and professional Ottawans take transit and have experienced how having buses operate in mixed traffic downtown wastes time and resources. A completely separate right of way is probably much easier to sell to them.

(07-08-2019, 07:49 AM)trainspotter139 Wrote:

(07-07-2019, 10:48 PM)KevinL Wrote: It would be nice to have it sorted by September.

Sorting out the ATP system will take longer than September. Sorting out the issues that are restricting speeds will take some time but much less time than fixing the ATP system. The two are being handled separately. It's really worth noting that even with the speed restrictions ION meets or exceeds the travel time requirements in the contract.

(07-07-2019, 10:36 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: It's not required right now... but once service ramps up to 5 minute frequencies it will be, especially with 5 minute frequency double trains.

(07-08-2019, 09:37 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:

(07-08-2019, 07:49 AM)trainspotter139 Wrote: Sorting out the ATP system will take longer than September. Sorting out the issues that are restricting speeds will take some time but much less time than fixing the ATP system. The two are being handled separately. It's really worth noting that even with the speed restrictions ION meets or exceeds the travel time requirements in the contract.

Why? What are they doing? What have they been doing for the last 2 years? It’s not like they’re figuring out how to build a Hyperloop or something; this is established, mature technology.

(07-08-2019, 09:43 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:

(07-07-2019, 10:36 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: It's not required right now... but once service ramps up to 5 minute frequencies it will be, especially with 5 minute frequency double trains.

Well apparently it’s required right now for full speed. But even putting that aside, what does 5 minute frequency have to do with it? On the 401 buses and trucks operate at 120km/h on LOS with sub-3s headways. Now of course there are collisions every so often but even 5 minute frequency is 100 times less often then typical frequency on a lane of the 401. So again, why is ATP needed to operate what are essentially slightly longer buses at only 70km/h with no random drivers getting in way (obviously slower in tightly curved areas; but I’m talking about the long nearly-straight sections)?

(07-08-2019, 09:36 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: Tunnelling here would be possible, as it is pretty much anywhere except maybe through the core of an active volcano or something like that. However, it would be ridiculously expensive. Through Uptown, it would have to go under the creek, which means either very tricky tunnelling through muck or going very deep, either of which is expensive. Given the traffic levels and the availability of space on the surface, this simply doesn’t make sense, and as pointed out by others, would have led to non-approval of the project.

(07-08-2019, 09:36 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:

(07-08-2019, 07:21 AM)MidTowner Wrote: This is the most important bit. I don't see why tunneling here would be technically not possible, but I do know that it would not be achievable politically. We had a significant fight to get LRT; a more expensive system that involved tunnelling in some but not other parts of the line would not have achieved the necessary support.

The two cities are in completely different contexts. Many more middle-class and professional Ottawans take transit and have experienced how having buses operate in mixed traffic downtown wastes time and resources. A completely separate right of way is probably much easier to sell to them.

Tunnelling here would be possible, as it is pretty much anywhere except maybe through the core of an active volcano or something like that. However, it would be ridiculously expensive. Through Uptown, it would have to go under the creek, which means either very tricky tunnelling through muck or going very deep, either of which is expensive. Given the traffic levels and the availability of space on the surface, this simply doesn’t make sense, and as pointed out by others, would have led to non-approval of the project.

In Ottawa the traffic levels are enormously higher. Also, the tunnelled section is high ground consisting of rock, and only a small fraction of the route. As a result, the tunnel more or less continues the grade of the non-tunnelled portion so they could just start digging in from the side. Because it is all rock, they were able to mine it; to my knowledge Ottawa didn’t use any tunnel-boring machines.

(07-08-2019, 09:37 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:

(07-08-2019, 07:49 AM)trainspotter139 Wrote: Sorting out the ATP system will take longer than September.

Why? What are they doing? What have they been doing for the last 2 years? It’s not like they’re figuring out how to build a Hyperloop or something; this is established, mature technology.

(07-08-2019, 10:14 AM)trainspotter139 Wrote:

(07-08-2019, 09:43 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: Well apparently it’s required right now for full speed. But even putting that aside, what does 5 minute frequency have to do with it? On the 401 buses and trucks operate at 120km/h on LOS with sub-3s headways. Now of course there are collisions every so often but even 5 minute frequency is 100 times less often then typical frequency on a lane of the 401. So again, why is ATP needed to operate what are essentially slightly longer buses at only 70km/h with no random drivers getting in way (obviously slower in tightly curved areas; but I’m talking about the long nearly-straight sections)?

ATP is not required for full speed for the time being.

(07-08-2019, 10:27 AM)tomh009 Wrote: On top of the tunneling costs, underground stations (and their associated access, using escalators and elevators) would have added huge costs to the project.

What we have is very much appropriate for Waterloo Region. We also have the option of giving trains traffic light priority should that make sense in the future.