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+--- Thread: Road design, safety and Vision Zero (/showthread.php?tid=1409)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 12-07-2020
(12-06-2020, 11:37 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: It doesn't matter if you consider it a slur, it *IS* a slur...the term "jay" is like hillbilly or redneck, and the car industry usurped it to described pedestrians in their successful 1920's campaign to steal our streets.
Let me throw in one of my favourite quotes here.
Quote:Okie use' ta mean you was from Oklahoma. Now it means you're a dirty son-of-a-bitch. Okie means you're scum. Don't mean nothing itself, it's the way they say it.
This is from Grapes of Wrath (John Steinbeck, 1939). The point is that words may describe something, but they may become offensive (okie, negro) or they may become just descriptive (jaywalking).
1920s was a long time ago. I don't think "Okie" is so offensive any more, either.
(And, yes, I jaywalk, too, but only after ensuring the street is clear.)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - dtkvictim - 12-07-2020
(12-06-2020, 11:37 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for pedestrians, I think the number of people jumping into traffic with their backs turned is smaller than you think. Most of the time people do look, but drivers being focused on scanning the road (or worse, their twitter feed), probably do not happen to be looking at the exact moment pedestrians are also looking. If pedestrians didn't look, they'd be run over.
I don't have any interest in the greater debate going on here, but this comment stuck out to me. While the number of people who blindly step out in to traffic is certainly a very small percentage of pedestrians, anecdotally it's way higher than I thought it would be. When I commuted by foot daily I saw people doing this probably at least once a month. I don't even mean people that step out on to a road with live traffic and time their way between cars, I mean people that genuinely stepped in front of cars and forced them to stop or change lanes. The craziest part to me was that most of these occurred on Weber street where I'm extra careful with my mid-block crossings.
I even saw a woman once step directly in front of a moving police car on King St. Not a difficult street to watch for traffic on, and not the car you typically want to force to stop for you.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-07-2020
(12-07-2020, 02:03 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:(12-06-2020, 11:37 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: As for pedestrians, I think the number of people jumping into traffic with their backs turned is smaller than you think. Most of the time people do look, but drivers being focused on scanning the road (or worse, their twitter feed), probably do not happen to be looking at the exact moment pedestrians are also looking. If pedestrians didn't look, they'd be run over.
I don't have any interest in the greater debate going on here, but this comment stuck out to me. While the number of people who blindly step out in to traffic is certainly a very small percentage of pedestrians, anecdotally it's way higher than I thought it would be. When I commuted by foot daily I saw people doing this probably at least once a month. I don't even mean people that step out on to a road with live traffic and time their way between cars, I mean people that genuinely stepped in front of cars and forced them to stop or change lanes. The craziest part to me was that most of these occurred on Weber street where I'm extra careful with my mid-block crossings.
I even saw a woman once step directly in front of a moving police car on King St. Not a difficult street to watch for traffic on, and not the car you typically want to force to stop for you.
I dunno...I've not seen any study of this, but I spent a lot of time on campus, where I know people complain constantly about students walking into traffic, but when I watch carefully I always see people look for traffic.
Probably someone should do a study.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - dtkvictim - 12-07-2020
(12-07-2020, 02:11 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(12-07-2020, 02:03 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: I don't have any interest in the greater debate going on here, but this comment stuck out to me. While the number of people who blindly step out in to traffic is certainly a very small percentage of pedestrians, anecdotally it's way higher than I thought it would be. When I commuted by foot daily I saw people doing this probably at least once a month. I don't even mean people that step out on to a road with live traffic and time their way between cars, I mean people that genuinely stepped in front of cars and forced them to stop or change lanes. The craziest part to me was that most of these occurred on Weber street where I'm extra careful with my mid-block crossings.
I even saw a woman once step directly in front of a moving police car on King St. Not a difficult street to watch for traffic on, and not the car you typically want to force to stop for you.
I dunno...I've not seen any study of this, but I spent a lot of time on campus, where I know people complain constantly about students walking into traffic, but when I watch carefully I always see people look for traffic.
Probably someone should do a study.
Yeah, I'm not suggesting that all of the drivers complaining about inattentive pedestrians are valid, just the some of them are valid.
But speaking of students, I do recall being let out for lunch at Cameron Heights and hundreds of students would cross Charles about 30 feet to the side of the light, regardless of traffic. There would usually be a number of cars lined up honking, waiting. I suspect the situation must be a bit different now with the Ion out front.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 12-07-2020
(12-07-2020, 03:45 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: But speaking of students, I do recall being let out for lunch at Cameron Heights and hundreds of students would cross Charles about 30 feet to the side of the light, regardless of traffic. There would usually be a number of cars lined up honking, waiting. I suspect the situation must be a bit different now with the Ion out front.
Yes, now the students cross halfway to the Ion right-of-way, then cross the other direction separately. So it’s the Ion that is lined up honking, waiting, not the cars.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-08-2020
And we have yet more pedestrians injured.
https://www.therecord.com/news/crime/2020/12/08/victoria-street-closed-north-of-kitchener-after-pedestrians-struck.html
Given the driver was arrested on the spot, it seems likely there is significant cause...i.e., the driver is stumbling drunk or something.
And yet, EVEN THEN...the paper refuses to give any agency to the driver, the pedestrians "were struck" and "struck by a vehicle"..."driver arrested totally unrelated right".
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - Bytor - 12-08-2020
(12-07-2020, 02:03 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: While the number of people who blindly step out in to traffic is certainly a very small percentage of pedestrians, anecdotally it's way higher than I thought it would be.
Never trust anecdotes. Cognitive biases will bite you in the ass. Such as availability bias. If you recently saw one of the rare pedestrians blindly walking out in to the traffic, that's what you'll fixate on and think it happens more often than it really does. Or if somebody told you about it happening to them.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - dtkvictim - 12-08-2020
(12-08-2020, 03:33 PM)Bytor Wrote:(12-07-2020, 02:03 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: While the number of people who blindly step out in to traffic is certainly a very small percentage of pedestrians, anecdotally it's way higher than I thought it would be.
Never trust anecdotes. Cognitive biases will bite you in the ass. Such as availability bias. If you recently saw one of the rare pedestrians blindly walking out in to the traffic, that's what you'll fixate on and think it happens more often than it really does. Or if somebody told you about it happening to them.
In terms of proportions, you are correct. But what I wrote is not at all what I meant to convey. I should have said "the total number is way higher than I thought it would be", I was not meaning to discuss proportions in the second half of my sentence even though I clearly wrote it that way. My personal sample can only be less than or equal to the total number of people blindly walking out in to traffic, and my personal sample was way larger than I expected, was the point I was trying to make.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - jeffster - 12-08-2020
(12-07-2020, 02:11 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I dunno...I've not seen any study of this, but I spent a lot of time on campus, where I know people complain constantly about students walking into traffic, but when I watch carefully I always see people look for traffic.
Probably someone should do a study.
I am sure it has been studied, or could be, but there isn't much of an appetite for reporting anything that might blame pedestrians for some of the accidents. The fact that pedestrians are being run over by trains and the ION is proof that many people just don't give a crap.
Of course, that also means that motorists need to keep an eye out for all pedestrians, even the ones that appear to be doing everything right. When I drive, I try to constantly scan, not just the road, but also sidewalks for people. You just never know.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-08-2020
(12-08-2020, 07:45 PM)jeffster Wrote:(12-07-2020, 02:11 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I dunno...I've not seen any study of this, but I spent a lot of time on campus, where I know people complain constantly about students walking into traffic, but when I watch carefully I always see people look for traffic.
Probably someone should do a study.
I am sure it has been studied, or could be, but there isn't much of an appetite for reporting anything that might blame pedestrians for some of the accidents. The fact that pedestrians are being run over by trains and the ION is proof that many people just don't give a crap.
Of course, that also means that motorists need to keep an eye out for all pedestrians, even the ones that appear to be doing everything right. When I drive, I try to constantly scan, not just the road, but also sidewalks for people. You just never know.
Please don't be silly, this is an utterly ridiculous claim, pedestrians (and cyclists to an even greater extent) are constantly blamed by the media. FFS I literally posted about this a few pages back, where two peds were hit in London and the media published a list of "they should have worn this to not be killed". And these are in the instances where peds aren't found at fault. In the very rare case they are, you better believe that'll be in the news report.
It is in fact drivers who are given every possible advantage by the media. They generally refuse to even state in a news article that the driver of a vehicle hit someone.
Also, they're crashes, not accidents.
"proof that many people just don't give a crap"...Think about what you are claiming here. You suggest people do not give a crap...about what? About being killed in the street. You seem to feel that a large number of people in this city are suicidal. That simply isn't true, people do care, most people do not want to die. There are many reasons why people make mistakes. Also, I'm not sure now, how many pedestrians have been hit by trains? 1? 2? How many drivers?
Drivers are far more likely to not care, because it is not their life they are not caring about.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - panamaniac - 12-08-2020
(12-08-2020, 03:20 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: And we have yet more pedestrians injured.The speed of the arrest surprised me, so it must have been rather obvious. There was a case in Ottawa this summer where a car turned off the road and into a MUT. He killed one person and injured another. Criminal charges were laid only last week.
https://www.therecord.com/news/crime/2020/12/08/victoria-street-closed-north-of-kitchener-after-pedestrians-struck.html
Given the driver was arrested on the spot, it seems likely there is significant cause...i.e., the driver is stumbling drunk or something.
And yet , EVEN THEN...the paper refuses to give any agency to the driver, the pedestrians "were struck" and "struck by a vehicle"..."driver arrested totally unrelated right".
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-08-2020
(12-08-2020, 09:18 PM)panamaniac Wrote:(12-08-2020, 03:20 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: And we have yet more pedestrians injured.The speed of the arrest surprised me, so it must have been rather obvious. There was a case in Ottawa this summer where a car turned off the road and into a MUT. He killed one person and injured another. Criminal charges were laid only last week.
https://www.therecord.com/news/crime/2020/12/08/victoria-street-closed-north-of-kitchener-after-pedestrians-struck.html
Given the driver was arrested on the spot, it seems likely there is significant cause...i.e., the driver is stumbling drunk or something.
And yet , EVEN THEN...the paper refuses to give any agency to the driver, the pedestrians "were struck" and "struck by a vehicle"..."driver arrested totally unrelated right".
I remember that one. Yes, it is rare that charges are laid so quickly. I honestly have no idea what police are waiting for. There is being thorough, and then there is doing nothing for six months. We are clearly beyond thorough.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - panamaniac - 12-08-2020
(12-08-2020, 09:23 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:And, of course, only time will tell whether there will be a conviction.(12-08-2020, 09:18 PM)panamaniac Wrote: The speed of the arrest surprised me, so it must have been rather obvious. There was a case in Ottawa this summer where a car turned off the road and into a MUT. He killed one person and injured another. Criminal charges were laid only last week.
I remember that one. Yes, it is rare that charges are laid so quickly. I honestly have no idea what police are waiting for. There is being thorough, and then there is doing nothing for six months. We are clearly beyond thorough.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - plam - 12-08-2020
(12-08-2020, 08:49 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(12-08-2020, 07:45 PM)jeffster Wrote: I am sure it has been studied, or could be, but there isn't much of an appetite for reporting anything that might blame pedestrians for some of the accidents. The fact that pedestrians are being run over by trains and the ION is proof that many people just don't give a crap.
Of course, that also means that motorists need to keep an eye out for all pedestrians, even the ones that appear to be doing everything right. When I drive, I try to constantly scan, not just the road, but also sidewalks for people. You just never know.
Please don't be silly, this is an utterly ridiculous claim, pedestrians (and cyclists to an even greater extent) are constantly blamed by the media. FFS I literally posted about this a few pages back, where two peds were hit in London and the media published a list of "they should have worn this to not be killed". And these are in the instances where peds aren't found at fault. In the very rare case they are, you better believe that'll be in the news report.
Society is heterogeneous. People who do studies might not be interested in doing these studies, while the media does like to lay blame without evidence.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-08-2020
Just in case anyone is bored...
Hamilton Police are looking for a minivan, that they feel has committed a crime. I thought they might want the driver, but the Hamilton Spectator is very specific here.
Of course, it's absolutely disguisting someone would do this...
It's also worth noting that if this had been a pickup or full-size SUV, there's a good chance the pedestrian would have been pulled under and crushed to death...