ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version +- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com) +-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14) +--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25) +--- Thread: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=14) Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
524
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
540
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
634
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645
646
647
648
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
680
681
682
683
684
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
694
695
696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
704
705
706
707
708
709
710
711
712
713
714
715
716
717
718
719
720
721
722
723
724
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
732
733
734
735
736
737
738
739
740
741
742
743
744
745
746
747
748
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
761
762
763
764
765
766
767
768
769
770
771
772
773
774
775
776
777
778
779
780
781
782
783
784
785
786
787
788
789
790
791
792
793
794
795
796
797
798
799
800
801
802
803
804
805
806
807
808
809
810
811
812
813
814
815
816
817
818
819
820
821
822
823
824
825
826
827
828
829
830
831
832
833
834
835
836
837
838
839
840
841
842
843
844
845
846
847
848
849
850
851
852
853
854
855
856
857
858
859
860
861
862
863
864
865
866
867
868
869
870
871
872
873
874
875
876
877
878
879
880
881
882
883
884
885
886
887
888
889
890
891
892
893
894
895
896
897
898
899
900
901
902
903
904
905
906
907
908
909
910
911
912
913
914
915
916
917
918
919
920
921
922
923
924
925
926
927
928
929
930
931
932
933
934
935
936
937
938
939
940
941
942
943
944
945
946
947
948
949
950
951
952
953
954
955
956
957
958
959
960
961
962
963
964
965
966
967
968
969
970
971
972
973
974
975
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
983
984
985
986
987
988
989
990
991
992
993
994
995
996
997
998
999
1000
1001
1002
1003
1004
1005
1006
1007
1008
1009
1010
1011
1012
1013
1014
1015
1016
1017
1018
1019
1020
1021
1022
1023
1024
1025
1026
1027
1028
1029
1030
1031
1032
1033
1034
1035
1036
1037
1038
1039
1040
1041
1042
1043
1044
1045
1046
1047
1048
1049
1050
1051
1052
1053
1054
1055
1056
1057
1058
1059
1060
1061
1062
1063
1064
1065
1066
1067
1068
1069
1070
1071
1072
1073
1074
1075
1076
1077
1078
1079
1080
1081
1082
1083
1084
1085
1086
1087
1088
1089
1090
1091
1092
1093
1094
1095
1096
1097
1098
1099
1100
1101
1102
1103
1104
1105
1106
1107
1108
1109
1110
1111
1112
1113
1114
1115
1116
1117
1118
1119
1120
1121
1122
1123
1124
1125
1126
1127
1128
1129
1130
1131
1132
1133
1134
1135
1136
1137
1138
1139
1140
1141
1142
1143
1144
1145
1146
1147
1148
1149
1150
1151
1152
1153
1154
1155
1156
1157
1158
1159
1160
1161
1162
1163
1164
1165
1166
|
RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 04:45 PM)Pheidippides Wrote: Final expropriations/easements along Courtland near Siebert and Shelley are listed in the package as well. Yeah, I'm really not clear on why we need eight months after the last vehicle -- I would think at that point we'd just need to test/certify the last vehicle, which should not take anywhere near that long. Quote:Under the original agreement, Bombardier planned to have all vehicles delivered here by December 2016. That was then moved to the following December, pushing the service start to late spring 2018. And that's only six months, not eight. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - embe - 04-13-2018 Could it be that Peter Shawn Taylor was aware of this news before writing the article referenced on pg. 768? The opening comments "...the future appears to look like a bunch of empty tracks designed to make driving more awkward and confusing. Assuming our missing trains do eventually arrive, however...", may not seem as negative, compared to realistic if this schedule was "in the know" for certain people. **Sorry all, I edited my own post after re-reading and seeing the context it could be taken in** RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 04:43 PM)KevinL Wrote: Incidentally, Canard, did you see pages 46-55? Something's up with the Courtland/Siebert area but I can't penetrate the legalese. This is really, really late. Surely we would not be able to start service without this being completed, either. Or would we? RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - KevinL - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 04:57 PM)Canard Wrote: Where did you see that Kevin? ...I was inferring based on your statement. Did I misunderstand? Here's a GRT-related question: if the new Fairway and UW terminals are finished by, say, September, will buses serve those even before Ion launch? RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - trainspotter139 - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 05:12 PM)KevinL Wrote:(04-13-2018, 04:57 PM)Canard Wrote: Where did you see that Kevin? Yes for Fairway. Unlikely for UW RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bob_McBob - 04-13-2018 I have to stay off social media for a couple days, the level of gloating about this is truly revolting. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 05:18 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: I have to stay off social media for a couple days, the level of gloating about this is truly revolting. Indeed! I cannot stand people who revel in things going badly for the city. Even when projects I disagree with go badly, I'm not usually happy about it, even if I perhaps use it as an argument to change direction. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Canard - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 05:12 PM)KevinL Wrote:(04-13-2018, 04:57 PM)Canard Wrote: Where did you see that Kevin? Yes. I don't speak legaleeze! I read 3 words and got confused. I thought you were making a statement saying exactly what happened. So, who knows what happened and can translate this? (04-13-2018, 05:47 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Indeed! I cannot stand people who revel in things going badly for the city. Yeah, I've never understood that mentality, at all. People like that make me sick. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 04:28 PM)KevinL Wrote: Ugh. I am very disappointed in how slowly things have been allowed to proceed and the dearth of testing seen so far, and it seems now that's well founded. Hopefully this lights a fire under the right people and we find a way to shrink these timelines. The vehicles were originally planned to be delivered in lots of time. Given that, it would be reasonable to make a plan that isn’t dependent on the exact date of vehicle arrival, meaning that the time between all the vehicles arriving and the system opening could be quite long. In a different situation, one can imagine even longer — imagine we got a good deal on used vehicles. Maybe they would have arrived in 2014 because that is when they were available. It doesn’t mean all that time is needed for testing. It is not believable that 8 months, or even 6 months, are truly needed after delivery of the last vehicle to prepare the system for opening. What they should be doing now is moving ahead full speed with everything that can be done with the vehicles now here. Treat the remaining vehicles as additions to a functional system. Let’s get real: say the system is a huge success, so much so that we need to increase service to a level that requires more vehicles. Will it really take 8 months after arrival of the additional vehicles before they can be used in service? I think not. And if it is needed, then there is a severe problem with how these projects are being conducted, because it just shouldn’t take that long. It would be like the bridge engineers coming back and saying that the Laurel Creek rail bridge replacement was going to be a 2-year project. This project has suffered for many years from a lack of urgency, but this is the most egregious example of it I think we’ve seen. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Pheidippides - 04-13-2018 I don't speak legal-ese either, but my reading of it is that (there is additional background in this report): -the region authorized temporary easements to allow construction to proceed in 2016 while they continued negotiations with the owner(s) -those temporary easements expire 31-Dec-2018 -the region and the owners couldn't reach a settlement outside of the expropriation process -so the region started the expropriation process in October of 2017 -the owners exercised their rights under the expropriation process to a hearing of necessity in November 2017 -that hearing was scheduled for April 2018 -the owners since withdrew their request for a hearing -the region resumed the expropriation process The "...possession of the required lands and interests in late Summer of 2018 so that the works to install vehicular and pedestrian access control gates and associated works, and completion of grading, landscaping and restoration, can all be completed before the end of Fall, 2018 which will facilitate the overall project time line." RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - KevinL - 04-13-2018 So, a lot of back-and-forth over this, then. I guess that's bound to happen somewhere. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 06:01 PM)Canard Wrote:(04-13-2018, 05:12 PM)KevinL Wrote: ...I was inferring based on your statement. Did I misunderstand? No special knowledge here, but I’ve read my share of legal documents and I’ll try to unpack it a little. Overall, it’s a staff recommendation, which Council can vote on. If they vote to follow the recommendation, then staff will do what they recommended. Of course, Council could pass no motion, in which case nothing happens, or they could pass a different motion (e.g. “come up with more options”, “Look into buying the whole property”, etc.). The recommendation is to expropriate some property. The rest consists of details and standard boilerplate: 1) detailed description of what is to be expropriated, starting with the heading “Permanent Easement” on Page 46; 2) boilerplate starting with “And that staff be instructed to register a Plan of Expropriation for the property…” on Page 48; 3) background information starting with “Summary” on Page 49; 4) maps on Pages 52-54 with areas labelled in correspondence with the detailed description of the property; 5) list of affected owners on Page 55. So it’s not actually very complicated, there are just a lot of details that are written out in full every time. In this case, since they appear to be expropriating an easement (right to use the property) of a portion of the property rather than full ownership of the entire property, it’s actually longer and more complicated. If they recommend expropriation of an entire property, the detailed description says something more like “all right and title in …” and then specifies the exact property by street address and legal description. Here, it describes the property and gives an extensive description of what the easement is for, which is so long that one loses the thread of the sentence before reaching the end. And then this is done 3 times, because they have separate easements for grading, construction, and permanent operation. Note on the maps that one of the construction easements sort of wraps around the permanent easement, which makes sense: typically the area occupied by construction activities is larger than the area occupied by the finished project. Overall, my assessment is that they are expropriating an easement allowing them to install and operate crossing gates on Scherer’s property, and complete the related grading and construction activities. I hope this is helpful. I would love to have an actual lawyer’s assessment of the accuracy of the above. I am not a lawyer and certainly not your lawyer so take it all with a grain of salt. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Pheidippides - 04-13-2018 Thinking about the new proposed schedule, December 2018 seems unattainable. Even if they ship one every two weeks, which they haven't done yet, the 14th vehicle would arrive in mid-August. Adding 6 months puts it at February 2019. Even if they ship one every per week the 14th vehicle would arrive in late-June. Adding 6 months puts it at late December 2018; and that is if everything goes absolutely perfectly, which is highly unlikely given. Do we know if 501 will be the last to be (re) delivered? It will be unfortunate if that is the hold up when it sat here for nearly a year. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 04-13-2018 (04-13-2018, 04:48 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Ridiculous. It is indeed. Even though I am a huge fan of the ION, I am not surprised that it's going to be this late, and frankly, I'll be surprised if they start it this December, I'm still thinking spring 2019 at the earliest and summer 2020 at the latest. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Canard - 04-13-2018 For all those “I told you so” types - just what is your pessimistic foreshadowing based on? Exactly how many other rapid transit projects have you this intensely followed the construction on around the world that qualify you to make that claim? |