+- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com)
+-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=683)
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - ZEBuilder - 03-18-2024
At UWs Civil Engineering Capstone symposium today one of the groups had an interesting proposal for the LRT along Hespeler. It is certainly more ambitious then anything the Region would ever put out. Effectively what they did was reduce Hespeler from 7 lanes in its current form (3 straight through per direction and left turn lanes) to 4 lanes that operate in a 2:1 configuration that changes depending on traffic, similar to the Golden Gate bridge, with the fourth being left turn lanes. With the 3 extra lanes they now have they put in fully protected bi directional cycling lanes, the LRT tracks and then still had ample space for a widened sidewalk as well as a linear stormwater infiltration system.
For as much hate as engineers get for the design of most things, there are certainly good ideas among that are proposed this one included, politics are just constantly screwing over any good idea that might come forward. Just look at how much of a fight was put up against the downtown cycling grid, or just Liggett's/Craig's constant hatred of the LRT.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 03-19-2024
(03-18-2024, 04:08 PM)ZEBuilder Wrote: At UWs Civil Engineering Capstone symposium today one of the groups had an interesting proposal for the LRT along Hespeler. It is certainly more ambitious then anything the Region would ever put out. Effectively what they did was reduce Hespeler from 7 lanes in its current form (3 straight through per direction and left turn lanes) to 4 lanes that operate in a 2:1 configuration that changes depending on traffic, similar to the Golden Gate bridge, with the fourth being left turn lanes. With the 3 extra lanes they now have they put in fully protected bi directional cycling lanes, the LRT tracks and then still had ample space for a widened sidewalk as well as a linear stormwater infiltration system.
For as much hate as engineers get for the design of most things, there are certainly good ideas among that are proposed this one included, politics are just constantly screwing over any good idea that might come forward. Just look at how much of a fight was put up against the downtown cycling grid, or just Liggett's/Craig's constant hatred of the LRT.
Who was making the proposals? Student groups? Consultants? Anybody I can expect in my cynicism to have an actual hope in hell of influencing the final functional design plans of Stage 2 on Hespeler Rd.?
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - ZEBuilder - 03-19-2024
(03-19-2024, 04:55 PM)Bytor Wrote:(03-18-2024, 04:08 PM)ZEBuilder Wrote: At UWs Civil Engineering Capstone symposium today one of the groups had an interesting proposal for the LRT along Hespeler. It is certainly more ambitious then anything the Region would ever put out. Effectively what they did was reduce Hespeler from 7 lanes in its current form (3 straight through per direction and left turn lanes) to 4 lanes that operate in a 2:1 configuration that changes depending on traffic, similar to the Golden Gate bridge, with the fourth being left turn lanes. With the 3 extra lanes they now have they put in fully protected bi directional cycling lanes, the LRT tracks and then still had ample space for a widened sidewalk as well as a linear stormwater infiltration system.
For as much hate as engineers get for the design of most things, there are certainly good ideas among that are proposed this one included, politics are just constantly screwing over any good idea that might come forward. Just look at how much of a fight was put up against the downtown cycling grid, or just Liggett's/Craig's constant hatred of the LRT.
Who was making the proposals? Student groups? Consultants? Anybody I can expect in my cynicism to have an actual hope in hell of influencing the final functional design plans of Stage 2 on Hespeler Rd.?
It's fourth year civil engineering students doing their final project. In all likelihood there isn't gonna be anything that comes out of it, unless one of the various judges is somehow involved with the design, but it at least shows that there are people in the industry that think what's currently planned is stupid and want to make it better.
Naturally nothing anywhere near what they were planning is going to ever happen because God forbid we get rid of more car lanes than required. If anything it might be a talking point that might come up if it keeps getting delayed.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - nms - 03-19-2024
These capstone competitions plant seeds in the minds of young engineers who become tomorrow's professional engineers either in consulting firms or in government. You never know what might happen!
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - plam - 03-21-2024
(03-19-2024, 10:22 PM)nms Wrote: These capstone competitions plant seeds in the minds of young engineers who become tomorrow's professional engineers either in consulting firms or in government. You never know what might happen!
A lot easier in software, but I'm aware of one Waterloo SE capstone project that became a company. You can buy the app, and people use it.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 03-21-2024
(03-21-2024, 03:54 AM)plam Wrote:(03-19-2024, 10:22 PM)nms Wrote: These capstone competitions plant seeds in the minds of young engineers who become tomorrow's professional engineers either in consulting firms or in government. You never know what might happen!
A lot easier in software, but I'm aware of one Waterloo SE capstone project that became a company. You can buy the app, and people use it.
"A lot easier in software" is the understatement of the century...quite literally. I too can make an app for sale in the app store...I in fact have done so...you can do it as a hobby (not saying that's what they've done), but redesigning a major arterial road in a major city...that's not a hobby...no matter how much better hobbyists might be at it than the highly paid engineers we actually trust with the job---ASK ME HOW I KNOW! (And yes, I am pissy about this...sorry about that)
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - bravado - 03-21-2024
Cynical answer: All these students will love it when they stop thinking creatively and learn to submit to the holy design manual in order to avoid any liability that comes from being creative and solving problems.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 03-21-2024
(03-21-2024, 09:25 AM)bravado Wrote:Cynical answer: All these students will love it when they stop thinking creatively and learn to submit to the holy design manual in order to avoid any liability that comes from being creative and solving problems.
I don't know if this is more cynical or less cynical...
The free thinkers (read: actual engineers) in the bunch will not succeed...their dogmatic (read: theocratic) peers will be promoted and advanced past them. Some will fall in line, but most will simply leave the field or wallow in mediocrity. A small few will start their own podcasts and not for profit agencies and eventually be sanctioned by their governing body.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 03-22-2024
Civil engineering is kind of bizarre in that way, compared to other engineering fields. To get your P.Eng. you have to commit to essentially continuing education for your entire career, which you think would lead to change and refresh of so-called industry best practices.
Take road widths as an example.
Back in the 1950s rural highways were examined to see what features correlated with high or lower crash rates and severity of crashes. This was, primarily just one study, IIRC, and is where the idea of broad roads, wide lanes, straight or easy curves, and long sightlines as being safer came from, and all roads were designed broader and wider and straighter than they needed to be for that safety. An 80km/h rural highway was over-designed for 100km/h, an urban arterial intended to be 50km/h was designed for 70km/h, and a 30km/h residential street for 50km/h, as that buffer supposedly made them safer yet.
By the 1970s we knew this wasn't the case for urban and suburban streets. The overly broad and wide layout just means that absent any enforcement motorists drive the design speeds rather than the posted limits because that feels safe. This makes things much more dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists.
You would think that civil engineers, being the subject matter experts in this field combined with their commitment to ongoing continuing education, would have recognized that the "industry best practices" were no such thing in the case of urban and suburban streets and that they would have been the driving force behind getting government manuals, policies, standards, and guidelines so they no longer recommended dangerous, overly broad streets but narrower ones with other design features that instead of encouraging motorists to speed instead hold them back to the intended speed limits.
But that's not what civil engineers did. For whatever reason they continued to accept and use these known faulty designs for municipal roads & streets, and have done so for decades.
When you ask the civil engineers why they didn't design it in those other ways that are known to be safer, they point you at the manual from which they copy-pasted the specifications and then throw up their hands as if that absolves them of any responsibility, professional or ethical.
Municipal councillors are partly to blame, but not as much as one might think. While the councils are decision-makers, they are not the subject matter experts. Governments at any level rely on staff to tell them what's what and to point out good from bad based on objective information and reasoning. To say what will work and what will not, with appropriate caveats when necessary, and to make sure that this is all done with accurate and up-to-date information. We cannot expect municipal councillors or other legislators to be the subject matter experts, it must be the civil engineers who drive this change and update of standards and best practices. Municipal councillors need to foster a culture among their staff so they feel able to come forward and say "Hey, we need to change how we do things because the evidence now shows that the way we are doing it now is incorrect, harmful, or even dangerous", and that the councillors will listen to them and task them with updating relevant policies and guidelines for the council to approve.
To put it harshly, road and street design manuals that give templates based on understandings known for decades to be wrong and harmful are lazy copypasta and tradition masquerading as "industry 'best' practices", and civil engineers who have let those manuals and templates persist without getting them changed or producing new ones are culpable and deserving of censure.
It should not be necessary for interested citizens to have to push for such changes with the civil engineers resisting almost every step of the way. Kitchener's Complete Streets should have been published in 1989, not 2019.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - bravado - 06-13-2024
Happy to announce that the Region continues to not care about costs or timelines, like all other Canadian levels of government. I guess we can expect the east-west Victoria St line in 2060 or so?
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/at-least-seven-years-before-lrt-stage-2-begins-1.6923690
Quote:At least seven years before LRT Stage 2 begins
The region did endorse the second stage route for the LRT to extend it 17.5 km’s and add seven new stops from the Fairway Station to downtown Cambridge. The region is just starting its initial business case for Stage 2 to establish who will do the work.
"It will quantify the costs and broader community benefits for the project and will provide regional council with a recommended alternative and form the basis of funding requests from the provincial and federal government," O’Neil said. "The initial business case is looking at LRT along that route. Other alternatives include shortened versions of LRT as well as a Cambridge Only LRT. The initial business case will also look at Bus Rapid Transit or BRT, along the same preferred route, also with dedicated exclusive lanes.”
The region will be providing updates on the construction phases as they begin. O’Neil said despite the headache it can cause for drivers, it’s needed work to improve the community.
"The Region is going to grow to more than a million people by 2051, and it's very important that we plan for that growth, that we bring it to the urban areas and we offer people options for transportation. We cannot continue building roads and widening roads forever," O’Neil said.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - westwardloo - 06-14-2024
(06-13-2024, 06:02 PM)bravado Wrote: Happy to announce that the Region continues to not care about costs or timelines, like all other Canadian levels of government. I guess we can expect the east-west Victoria St line in 2060 or so?
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/at-least-seven-years-before-lrt-stage-2-begins-1.6923690
Quote:At least seven years before LRT Stage 2 begins
The region did endorse the second stage route for the LRT to extend it 17.5 km’s and add seven new stops from the Fairway Station to downtown Cambridge. The region is just starting its initial business case for Stage 2 to establish who will do the work.
"It will quantify the costs and broader community benefits for the project and will provide regional council with a recommended alternative and form the basis of funding requests from the provincial and federal government," O’Neil said. "The initial business case is looking at LRT along that route. Other alternatives include shortened versions of LRT as well as a Cambridge Only LRT. The initial business case will also look at Bus Rapid Transit or BRT, along the same preferred route, also with dedicated exclusive lanes.”
The region will be providing updates on the construction phases as they begin. O’Neil said despite the headache it can cause for drivers, it’s needed work to improve the community.
"The Region is going to grow to more than a million people by 2051, and it's very important that we plan for that growth, that we bring it to the urban areas and we offer people options for transportation. We cannot continue building roads and widening roads forever," O’Neil said.
This has become a joke. I know there is probably not a business case to justify the route which is why the delay is happening. There is currently only 1 person at the region working on LRT phase-2 (Hint he is quoted in the article). It has been 5 years since phase 1 opened and they had already started planning phase 2 prior to phase 1 finishing, so basically it now take 15-20 years of preconstruction planning for a transit line in Ontario. Consultants are licking their lips on these government studies.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 06-14-2024
(06-14-2024, 07:56 AM)westwardloo Wrote:(06-13-2024, 06:02 PM)bravado Wrote: Happy to announce that the Region continues to not care about costs or timelines, like all other Canadian levels of government. I guess we can expect the east-west Victoria St line in 2060 or so?
https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/at-least-seven-years-before-lrt-stage-2-begins-1.6923690
This has become a joke. I know there is probably not a business case to justify the route which is why the delay is happening. There is currently only 1 person at the region working on LRT phase-2 (Hint he is quoted in the article). It has been 5 years since phase 1 opened and they had already started planning phase 2 prior to phase 1 finishing, so basically it now take 15-20 years of preconstruction planning for a transit line in Ontario. Consultants are licking their lips on these government studies.
People accuse me of being too cynical, but stuff like this really shows that I'm a realist more than anything.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - ac3r - 06-14-2024
7 years lol this region is run utterly incompetent clowns hahah.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - westwardloo - 06-14-2024
I honestly believe we as a society are close to new infrastructure never being built. The prices have been inflated like crazy for large scale construction projects, everyone needs to be consulted, everything needs to be studied to death. The fact that they are looking at a completely separate LRT for Cambridge and have a bus connect the 2 systems is crazy. I know they are even debating breaking phase 2 into a couple phases.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - bravado - 06-14-2024
We refuse to treat cost inflation seriously and it affects much more than just transit.
When Spain and Italy can build subways cheaper and faster than we can build at-grade light rail, the failure is with government who don’t take procurement and corruption and planning seriously.
If you don’t care about transit and whatnot, that’s cool - but a 10x cost in random train projects is also being matched by 10x increases in new schools and hospitals too. It’s absurd and the government is failing all of us when they rely on continuous consulting and engagement instead of just getting jobs done.