Road design, safety and Vision Zero - Printable Version +- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com) +-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14) +--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25) +--- Thread: Road design, safety and Vision Zero (/showthread.php?tid=1409) |
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 12:44 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(12-02-2020, 12:32 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I don't think there are easy solutions for safety. Even when there are "easy solutions" they are not easy. This is what makes me angry. Why aren't we upset about this. Why do we keep defending it. You're right, the reality is that a 2000 kg fast moving object is a danger, which is why we should focus on the 2000 kg fast moving object, not the person they ran over. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-02-2020 For a little more context, WRPS recorded 110 collisions including 14 injuries in addition to the fatal crash on Tuesday...that's 0.02% of the entire population crashing in a single day. Even on a day like today where we have record spike in COVID numbers, you were more likely to have crashed your car on Tuesday than you were to have gotten a positive result on a COVID test. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 03:24 PM)tomh009 Wrote: It could well be. I was not there and I have no details. If the driver didn’t see them in time then they were driving too fast for the conditions. I don’t need to know anything about what actually happened in any specific instance to be able to make that statement. This reminds me of a case where somebody stopped in the fast lane to help ducks cross the road. Then motorcycles came up and hit them from behind; two motorcyclists dead instantly. Now, clearly, stopping in the fast lane to help ducks is questionable, and my recollection is that the driver was charged, although I don’t remember the outcome. But the motorcyclists were driving too fast no matter what one thinks of the person who stopped their car. The car could have stopped because they hit a deer or because their car failed suddenly; then how would one deflect blame from the too-fast motorcyclists? RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - jamincan - 12-02-2020 It was one motorcycle ridden by a father and daughter. The lady had parked her car in the left lane and left the vehicle to try to rescue a bunch of ducklings. She was convicted of two counts of negligence causing death and two counts of dangerous driving causing death which was upheld on appeal. The sentence was relatively light considering the seriousness of the charges - 90 days in jail on weekends, 3 years probation, 240 hours community service, and 10 year driving ban. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/emma-czornobaj-loses-appeal-1.4152387 RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 08:55 PM)jamincan Wrote: It was one motorcycle ridden by a father and daughter. The lady had parked her car in the left lane and left the vehicle to try to rescue a bunch of ducklings. She was convicted of two counts of negligence causing death and two counts of dangerous driving causing death which was upheld on appeal. The sentence was relatively light considering the seriousness of the charges - 90 days in jail on weekends, 3 years probation, 240 hours community service, and 10 year driving ban. That's an amazingly severe sentence for a driver actually, no driver who isn't drunk would ever get even a tiny fraction of that sentence for running down and killing a group of pedestrians in a crosswalk with the right of way. It is interesting that a driver gets that sentence for stopping... It's not to say those charges don't apply...just interesting that killing someone by driving never gets that charge, only by NOT driving. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 03:46 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: You're right, the reality is that a 2000 kg fast moving object is a danger, which is why we should focus on the 2000 kg fast moving object, not the person they ran over. My focus is on improving safety and avoiding future collisions and deaths, not focusing on who to blame. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 09:36 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(12-02-2020, 03:46 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: You're right, the reality is that a 2000 kg fast moving object is a danger, which is why we should focus on the 2000 kg fast moving object, not the person they ran over. My focus is on improving safety, but telling people what to wear to not be run over is not a policy that improves safety...it's a policy which blames the victim. And I never said "who to blame", I said, what to focus on. I think it's entirely reasonable to focus on the SOURCE of the harm and risk on our roads. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 12-02-2020 There is rarely a single reason for a collision but a confluence of factors. Visibility is a big factor, as it was in this week's 7/8 crash. Using that as an example, headlights, DLRs, four-way flashers, flares, warning triangles, reflectors and bright-coloured clothing all contribute to better visibility and would have improved the situation (as would have a lower speed, indeed). I personally don't associate any of those with "blame". But, as always, we can agree to disagree on this point. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 09:46 PM)tomh009 Wrote: There is rarely a single reason for a collision but a confluence of factors. Visibility is a big factor, as it was in this week's 7/8 crash. Using that as an example, headlights, DLRs, four-way flashers, flares, warning triangles, reflectors and bright-coloured clothing all contribute to better visibility and would have improved the situation (as would have a lower speed, indeed). I personally don't associate any of those with "blame". It's victim blaming (not assinging blame), because when police and council instead of making actual changes that will improve safety reply with stuff like "you should wear brightly coloured clothing" the response is an abdication of responsibility for improving safety. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - dtkvictim - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 09:39 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(12-02-2020, 09:36 PM)tomh009 Wrote: My focus is on improving safety and avoiding future collisions and deaths, not focusing on who to blame. If wearing bright and reflective clothing makes you less likely to be hit, then it improves safety. This is not victim blaming, it's suggesting that people take precautionary steps to avoid being a victim. I look both ways before I cross at a walk signal, even though I shouldn't have to, because it improves my safety. In fact, we require cars to have lights to help them avoid being hit (or to help other cars avoid hitting them). Drivers are also suggested to look both ways before proceeding at a fresh green light. All of these things improve safety, despite the action being required of the would-be victim. That said, there are much more meaningful ways to improve safety and statements about wearing bright and reflective clothing is a deflection from them, so I understand the frustration. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-02-2020 (12-02-2020, 10:10 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:(12-02-2020, 09:39 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: My focus is on improving safety, but telling people what to wear to not be run over is not a policy that improves safety...it's a policy which blames the victim. Wearing reflective clothing is different from telling people to wear reflective clothing. Telling people what to wear is not a thing which changes people's behaviour. I'd also question the effectiveness of brightly clothing on a well lit city street, and argue that you'd have to give data proving that. Given drivers propensity to hit reflective objects like signs and pylons...I'm guessing that's going to be a high bar to demonstrate. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-03-2020 And it never ends...another cyclist has been killed in Toronto (the second in as many weeks), the reporting completely absolves the drivers "From what I know, she was clipped by a vehicle" That's right, a vehicle, not a driver. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/cyclist-dies-after-being-struck-by-two-cars-near-dufferin-mall-1.5214636 This is the same pattern as the previous death: https://toronto.citynews.ca/2020/11/20/cyclist-killed-etobicoke/ Where the article mentions only a "cement truck"...no indication if it was being driven by a person. Amazingly, police have gotten around to charging the garbage truck driver who killed the woman and her dog. https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/garbage-truck-driver-charged-in-crash-that-killed-pedestrian-dog-1.5214949 Of course, why it took them five months to lay charges, I have no idea. Of course, even though the driver has literally been charged careless driving causing death, the author of the article STILL absolves the driver in the description of the crash: "The crash happened on July 14 near Tuerr Drive and Countryside Crescent. A 68-year-old woman was walking her dog when she was hit by the truck." It's a wonder the American's don't try the same thing with gun violence. "It was at 6:30 PM when several children were shot by the gun. Later the gun holder was charged in connection with the accident." RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 12-03-2020 (12-02-2020, 08:55 PM)jamincan Wrote: It was one motorcycle ridden by a father and daughter. The lady had parked her car in the left lane and left the vehicle to try to rescue a bunch of ducklings. She was convicted of two counts of negligence causing death and two counts of dangerous driving causing death which was upheld on appeal. The sentence was relatively light considering the seriousness of the charges - 90 days in jail on weekends, 3 years probation, 240 hours community service, and 10 year driving ban. Thanks for doing the work to dig up the reference. RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 12-03-2020 (12-03-2020, 01:17 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: It's a wonder the American's don't try the same thing with gun violence. "It was at 6:30 PM when several children were shot by the gun. Later the gun holder was charged in connection with the accident." That is the true injustice. Imagine that, an American patriot and defender of the 2nd amendment being charged criminally! Next thing you know, a Democrat will win the White House! RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 12-04-2020 Tom Flood (who won an award at OBS this year), wrote a letter to Hamilton City Council as a result of the fatal collision this week. No "modest proposal", no sarcasm, just blunt truth. |