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+--- Thread: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=683)
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 11-20-2019
(11-20-2019, 07:17 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote:(11-20-2019, 01:30 AM)taylortbb Wrote: You're not going to find a citation in public records, but I can confirm the veracity of Dan's statement. I talked privately with the region about the issue (as a part of TriTAG), and Cadillac Fairview definitely didn't want the bus terminal on their property. Management views bus riders as just taking up space and using facilities meant for paying customers, without ever buying anything.You mean like when they started ticketing anyone who parked their car there and rode on the LRT ?
Conestoga Mall is quite the contrast, where management views bus riders as a key source of customers, and has been extremely accommodating of GRT.
Of course this may have something to do with the different demographics of transit ridership between the two areas.
Also, what does demographics have to do with it. Many people ride transit irrespective of their socially economic status. You statement implies that people boarding the train in the south are not as well off as people boarding a train in North Waterloo.... I board the train with my family at Fairview, I can advise that my income is well above that of the median income of Waterloo..
He's discussing the perspective of Cadillac Fairview, but you're challenging generalities with specific examples. Many people ride transit of many different socially economic statuses, and you are proof that many or at least some people with above-average incomes board at Fairview. But on average? I think it's probably true that "people boarding the train in the south are not [generally] as well off as people boarding a train in North Waterloo."
Fairview Cadillac's view is wrongheaded regardless, though, and not defensible even if it's true that transit riders on average spend less money at stores than motorists. I'm pretty close to equidistant from Conestoga or Fairview, but I won't be going to the latter- forget it. The comments about waiting in a vestibule (I do that with my kids for a couple of minutes sometimes when it's cold) don't exactly make me feel welcome.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Rainrider22 - 11-20-2019
Conestoga Mall did a terrible pr job as well, showing that they were not a good corporate community partner either. I just don't think they should be defended anymore than CF... That is my main point. Plus I get tired of people on here always making Waterloo out to be better in terms socio-economic. Higher income does not equal better.....
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 11-20-2019
(11-20-2019, 07:17 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote:(11-20-2019, 01:30 AM)taylortbb Wrote: You're not going to find a citation in public records, but I can confirm the veracity of Dan's statement. I talked privately with the region about the issue (as a part of TriTAG), and Cadillac Fairview definitely didn't want the bus terminal on their property. Management views bus riders as just taking up space and using facilities meant for paying customers, without ever buying anything.You mean like when they started ticketing anyone who parked their car there and rode on the LRT ?
Conestoga Mall is quite the contrast, where management views bus riders as a key source of customers, and has been extremely accommodating of GRT.
Of course this may have something to do with the different demographics of transit ridership between the two areas.
Also, what does demographics have to do with it. Many people ride transit irrespective of their socially economic status. You statement implies that people boarding the train in the south are not as well off as people boarding a train in North Waterloo.... I board the train with my family at Fairview, I can advise that my income is well above that of the median income of Waterloo..
They didn't ticket anyone, they threatened to ticket people, as I recall, I didn't see any stories of actual tickets. And yes, using valuable mall resources and not patronizing the mall *is* a problem, that *should* be ticketed. That doesn't mean tha the mall value GRT passengers who arrive at the mall.
"Many people ride transit regardless of their social status"....yes, absolutely, but a) many people do not, and b) it's crystal clear to everyone that not everyone thinks this, so don't pretend otherwise, that isn't remotely what taylorbb implied.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 11-20-2019
(11-20-2019, 09:31 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote: Conestoga Mall did a terrible pr job as well, showing that they were not a good corporate community partner either. I just don't think they should be defended anymore than CF... That is my main point. Plus I get tired of people on here always making Waterloo out to be better in terms socio-economic. Higher income does not equal better.....
Conestoga Mall threatened tickets to people clearly stealing from them for one week, Fairview mall forced the region to permanently and physically move a bus terminal to a less convenient location.
If you think these are the same, I've got a bridge to sell you.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Rainrider22 - 11-20-2019
(11-20-2019, 10:11 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:I don't tell you how to think, so please don't tell me how to think !!!(11-20-2019, 07:17 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote: You mean like when they started ticketing anyone who parked their car there and rode on the LRT ?
Also, what does demographics have to do with it. Many people ride transit irrespective of their socially economic status. You statement implies that people boarding the train in the south are not as well off as people boarding a train in North Waterloo.... I board the train with my family at Fairview, I can advise that my income is well above that of the median income of Waterloo..
They didn't ticket anyone, they threatened to ticket people, as I recall, I didn't see any stories of actual tickets. And yes, using valuable mall resources and not patronizing the mall *is* a problem, that *should* be ticketed. That doesn't mean tha the mall value GRT passengers who arrive at the mall.
"Many people ride transit regardless of their social status"....yes, absolutely, but a) many people do not, and b) it's crystal clear to everyone that not everyone thinks this, so don't pretend otherwise, that isn't remotely what taylorbb implied.
And why don't you let Taylorbb respond themself ?
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Rainrider22 - 11-20-2019
(11-20-2019, 10:13 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:Stop professing to be the resident expert on every subject matter on this board please and thank you.. You have no respect for anyone else's opinion but your own..(11-20-2019, 09:31 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote: Conestoga Mall did a terrible pr job as well, showing that they were not a good corporate community partner either. I just don't think they should be defended anymore than CF... That is my main point. Plus I get tired of people on here always making Waterloo out to be better in terms socio-economic. Higher income does not equal better.....
Conestoga Mall threatened tickets to people clearly stealing from them for one week, Fairview mall forced the region to permanently and physically move a bus terminal to a less convenient location.
If you think these are the same, I've got a bridge to sell you.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - KevinL - 11-20-2019
To make explicit the unspoken detail above - the demographic difference is students.
Conestoga is much closer to the universities, and relies on students as a large portion of their clientele. Students tend not to own cars, and thanks to U-Passes regularly take transit. Thus, Conestoga is welcoming of transit infrastructure to smoothly bring in much of their client base.
Fairview has a far different demographic amongst its clientele, and perceives (truly or not) that only their car-driving patrons are of value. Thus, nearby transit infrastructure is rebuffed by them, especially the bus terminal (again, their perception, not necessarily reality, is that LRT riders are more welcome than bus users).
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - taylortbb - 11-20-2019
(11-20-2019, 07:17 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote:(11-20-2019, 01:30 AM)taylortbb Wrote: You're not going to find a citation in public records, but I can confirm the veracity of Dan's statement. I talked privately with the region about the issue (as a part of TriTAG), and Cadillac Fairview definitely didn't want the bus terminal on their property. Management views bus riders as just taking up space and using facilities meant for paying customers, without ever buying anything.You mean like when they started ticketing anyone who parked their car there and rode on the LRT ?
Conestoga Mall is quite the contrast, where management views bus riders as a key source of customers, and has been extremely accommodating of GRT.
Of course this may have something to do with the different demographics of transit ridership between the two areas.
Also, what does demographics have to do with it. Many people ride transit irrespective of their socially economic status. You statement implies that people boarding the train in the south are not as well off as people boarding a train in North Waterloo.... I board the train with my family at Fairview, I can advise that my income is well above that of the median income of Waterloo..
Giving out warnings to people that use their parking lot as a park n' ride definitely wasn't the most transit supportive thing they've done. But they did give GRT a very cheap lease on the prime space directly in front of the main door so they could build a bus terminal. Compared to pushing the bus terminal off the property it is a very different level of support, even if there is room to do more.
As for the demographic difference, KevinL is right that I was referring to university students. I also live in Kitchener, and ride GRT, and make above median income, this isn't some "those Kitchener people" thing. But the reality is that most bus riders in WR are either students, seniors, or low income. WR has very few choice bus riders. The LRT is changing that, but this decision was about the bus terminal not the LRT. Conestoga Mall sees university students as a huge part of their customer base, but university students don't go to Fairview very much. Fairview's customers from buses are more high school students and those of low incomes, which the mall perceives (rightly or wrongly) as less likely to spend money. If you rode the old 200 from Conestoga to Fairview the difference in demographics along the route was noticeable.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Rainrider22 - 11-20-2019
Thank you for your input.....I appreciate it.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Bob_McBob - 12-16-2019
The province just effectively cancelled Hamilton's LRT. I'm not sure how this will affect Waterloo in the future. Obviously we're not getting any funding under the current government, but that will likely change in 2022, and Hamilton may still want their funding as well.
https://twitter.com/robertbenzie/status/1206640030095163392
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - westwardloo - 12-16-2019
(12-16-2019, 03:08 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: The province just effectively cancelled Hamilton's LRT. I'm not sure how this will affect Waterloo in the future. Obviously we're not getting any funding under the current government, but that will likely change in 2022, and Hamilton may still want their funding as well.This is crazy news. I am sad for the people of Hamilton. Looks like another decade of debate for them with no investment in rapid transit. Unfortunately I do think this will drop phase 2 down the line. Luckily we as a region more or less have seen the benefits of the lrt system and are committed to building it to cambridge so maybe we will be more prepared than Hamilton to receive funding.
https://twitter.com/robertbenzie/status/1206640030095163392
I am interested to see how this effects development in Hamilton. Seems like we will se a slow down in investments there. I am also interested to see how this effect population growth. I know when I moved from Toronto I was deciding between kw or Hamilton but ultimately chose kw because of the lrt.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 12-16-2019
(12-16-2019, 03:34 PM)westwardloo Wrote:(12-16-2019, 03:08 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: The province just effectively cancelled Hamilton's LRT. I'm not sure how this will affect Waterloo in the future. Obviously we're not getting any funding under the current government, but that will likely change in 2022, and Hamilton may still want their funding as well.This is crazy news. I am sad for the people of Hamilton. Looks like another decade of debate for them with no investment in rapid transit. Unfortunately I do think this will drop phase 2 down the line. Luckily we as a region more or less have seen the benefits of the lrt system and are committed to building it to cambridge so maybe we will be more prepared than Hamilton to receive funding.
https://twitter.com/robertbenzie/status/1206640030095163392
I am interested to see how this effects development in Hamilton. Seems like we will se a slow down in investments there. I am also interested to see how this effect population growth. I know when I moved from Toronto I was deciding between kw or Hamilton but ultimately chose kw because of the lrt.
Sometimes I complain about all the mistakes made in building the LRT. And sometimes I cannot understand how it managed to get built at all.
Our society is basically built nothing ever right now. Never mind what China can do, if we actually built the things we planned to build, we'd at least be building something.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 12-16-2019
(12-16-2019, 05:03 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(12-16-2019, 03:34 PM)westwardloo Wrote: This is crazy news. I am sad for the people of Hamilton. Looks like another decade of debate for them with no investment in rapid transit. Unfortunately I do think this will drop phase 2 down the line. Luckily we as a region more or less have seen the benefits of the lrt system and are committed to building it to cambridge so maybe we will be more prepared than Hamilton to receive funding.
I am interested to see how this effects development in Hamilton. Seems like we will se a slow down in investments there. I am also interested to see how this effect population growth. I know when I moved from Toronto I was deciding between kw or Hamilton but ultimately chose kw because of the lrt.
Sometimes I complain about all the mistakes made in building the LRT. And sometimes I cannot understand how it managed to get built at all.
Our society is basically built nothing ever right now. Never mind what China can do, if we actually built the things we planned to build, we'd at least be building something.
Part of the issue with Hamilton is that they want this LRT for completely free. Ford is talking about the $5B cost, when it's actually $3B (still 3x more than original estimate). So are we to assume that Ontario was also going to pay for the operational cost as well? I believe here in KW we're paying 100% of the operational costs (which then you have to minus any funds already received from user payments and federal and provincial transfers).
Not sure what you mean by "Our society is basically built nothing ever right now. Never mind what China can do.."
For one, we have built things, such as our own LRT. As for China, they have 40x the population and super cheap labour and lax safety rules and environmental rules, compared to Canada. If they couldn't build things, something would be seriously wrong with them.
As for this region, I suppose we should be proud of ourselves. We have an LRT, long before places like Hamilton, London, Mississauga, Brampton, Quebec, and Winnipeg. We had an expressway, before many other cities (including Hamilton, Winnipeg and London doesn't even have one). The region has taken it on the chin more times than most places, yet we plck ourselves back up and become better. We're a stubborn region, refusing to ever give up.
Moments like this, I think I'm glad we live in a region that dives right in and gets things done. We would be totally different if we were to back down and give up like so many other cities.
I am not sure how this will affect stage 2 of the LRT. The region was never asking for 100% costs to build the LRT, let alone operate it. So the province committing to $500M isn't unreasonable -- if it's even that high for the provincial portion. Guess we'll see.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - Rainrider22 - 12-16-2019
Well said. I agree we are a very industrious region. Adversity is seen as a challenge.
RE: ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 12-16-2019
(12-16-2019, 03:34 PM)westwardloo Wrote: This is crazy news. I am sad for the people of Hamilton. Looks like another decade of debate for them with no investment in rapid transit. Unfortunately I do think this will drop phase 2 down the line. Luckily we as a region more or less have seen the benefits of the lrt system and are committed to building it to cambridge so maybe we will be more prepared than Hamilton to receive funding.
I am interested to see how this effects development in Hamilton. Seems like we will se a slow down in investments there. I am also interested to see how this effect population growth. I know when I moved from Toronto I was deciding between kw or Hamilton but ultimately chose kw because of the lrt.
Not sure if I feel sorry for the people of Hamilton. The city would have never built an LRT if they had to put any of their own local taxpayers money into it. It's been debated before, and it was always a hard no. It became "perhaps we should look at it" when this region decided to go full steam ahead. Even then, they were very apprehensive until Ontario committed to paying 100% of the build and operational costs. Even at that, many were still against it, even though it wouldn't cost local tax payers a dime. Complaints then were about traffic disruptions (see KW) and businesses hurting (see KW). They couldn't look at the positives (don't look at KW) of an LRT, such as development (don't look at KW) and new business (don't look at KW).
I was talking to someone from Hamilton last week, before the announcement, and many there were not happy about this train to nowhere. He was also talking about how economically depressed the city is, and how it strictly is a blue collar working town. It seems that they cannot let go of the prosperous years when Dofasco and Stelco were so huge. When you look at KW, we have lost Uniroyal, Budd, Schneiders completely gone, and seen BlackBerry pretty much wiped out, yet here we are, doing are best to continue to grow strong, investing money where many wouldn't. Is our future guaranteed? Nope. But our continued investments in education (UofW, Laurier, Conestoga) and business (what Kitchener did for DTK) has already paid for itself.
Now we're getting 3,500 college students in DTK. This would have never happened without the LRT. Googles investment, likely would have never happened.
I do believe part of the reason why the LRT will transform the cities as much as it will, will be because of our relatively positive attitude towards it (minus the Woolwitch Observer). The negativity that Hamilton had from the beginning, even if Ontario decided to go ahead with funding, I truly believe it would not have had the same positive impact as it did here.
Mississauga and Brampton is a different story. They will benefit, and they want it.