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+--- Thread: Road design, safety and Vision Zero (/showthread.php?tid=1409)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 02-20-2023
(02-20-2023, 12:19 PM)cherrypark Wrote: I don't fully understand why - at least in the position of a few councillors around the benefit of the new limit enabling slower limits on new road designs - this couldn't be done with a blanket drop to 40 and instituting that all new construction and road updates would require a road diet and scaling design down to 30.
I guess its more complicated in practice having to sign all the 30s, but it bums me out if they roll it back only to lock out the chance to start making neighbourhood roads safer just because in the short term the roads are designed to feel safe at faster speed.
There's a few reasons I don't support this.
First and foremost, rebuilding all roads for a lower limit is a generational project, there's a reason I left the city, and it's because I don't have a generation to wait for safer roads.
Second most important, our engineers are incapable of building roads for a 30km/h limit right now, and are unwilling to even try. So we're like 3-10 years away from even starting our generational project.
And third, we know that speed limits are more effective when applied broadly rather than in individual cases. A speed limit of 30km/h applied broadly through the city is more effective than a 30 km/h speed limit on one or two disconnected segments of poorly designed reconstructed roads.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - bravado - 02-20-2023
What a disappointment for council to twist themselves into knots just to avoid doing the right thing: designing safe roads that match the speed limits assigned to them.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 02-20-2023
(02-20-2023, 12:32 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: We do know that speed limits do slow traffic. They doubly slow traffic if traffic is stuck behind a bus going slower.
But it's a moot point anyway, this applied only to residential streets, and most bus routes travel mostly along arterial and connector roads where the limit does not apply.
I’m thinking of streets like Westheights Dr. or Greebrook Dr., portions of which do have bus routes on them. It makes no sense to have a bus every 15 minutes piously obeying a 30km/h limit, followed by 15 minutes of traffic going through at 50km/h.
I think the lower the limit, compared to the design speed of the road, the less effective. Dropping a limit from 60 to 50 may well have a significant effect, but taking a road that is clearly designed for 50 and expecting traffic to drop to 30 with a bit of signage is not realistic. Now if the whole street were re-designed so it feels unsafe to go 40, you might get a better result.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 02-20-2023
(02-20-2023, 10:42 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: I think the lower the limit, compared to the design speed of the road, the less effective. Dropping a limit from 60 to 50 may well have a significant effect, but taking a road that is clearly designed for 50 and expecting traffic to drop to 30 with a bit of signage is not realistic. Now if the whole street were re-designed so it feels unsafe to go 40, you might get a better result.
Exactly. The speed limit and the road design limit should reinforce each other.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 02-21-2023
(02-20-2023, 10:42 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(02-20-2023, 12:32 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: We do know that speed limits do slow traffic. They doubly slow traffic if traffic is stuck behind a bus going slower.
But it's a moot point anyway, this applied only to residential streets, and most bus routes travel mostly along arterial and connector roads where the limit does not apply.
I’m thinking of streets like Westheights Dr. or Greebrook Dr., portions of which do have bus routes on them. It makes no sense to have a bus every 15 minutes piously obeying a 30km/h limit, followed by 15 minutes of traffic going through at 50km/h.
I think the lower the limit, compared to the design speed of the road, the less effective. Dropping a limit from 60 to 50 may well have a significant effect, but taking a road that is clearly designed for 50 and expecting traffic to drop to 30 with a bit of signage is not realistic. Now if the whole street were re-designed so it feels unsafe to go 40, you might get a better result.
Obviously design is more effective. But lowering speed limits is still effective in lower speeds. And no, there is value in having the bus go slower, because then things are slower for some time.
Anyway, I am pretty sure Westheights is a collector road...and in Kitchener anyway so it isn't affected by Waterloo's policy. And Westheights is only a short segment of the route...that's the point, the route would only be slightly affected. Most buses travel fairly slowly (like below 50) through residential areas already because you know...slightly better than average drivers.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - Bytor - 02-21-2023
I'm going to have to disagree with Dan. Lowering the speed limits doesn;t have any significant effect and studies show this.
https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html
People drive at the speed they feel comfortable at, not at the speed limit.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - Acitta - 02-21-2023
(02-21-2023, 04:06 PM)Bytor Wrote: I'm going to have to disagree with Dan. Lowering the speed limits doesn;t have any significant effect and studies show this.
https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html
People drive at the speed they feel comfortable at, not at the speed limit.
It is annoying when I am going 30 km/h on my ebike and car drivers feel the need to pass me by crossing the solid line into oncoming traffic only to get to the red light just ahead where I catch up to them. 30 km/h is plenty fast enough.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 02-21-2023
(02-21-2023, 04:06 PM)Bytor Wrote: I'm going to have to disagree with Dan. Lowering the speed limits doesn;t have any significant effect and studies show this.
https://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/sl-irrel.html
People drive at the speed they feel comfortable at, not at the speed limit.
That's a 1992 study. In the past 30 years much research has contradicted that study.
More, research has also shown how to most effectively lower speeds with speed limits. Specifically speed limits are more effective when implemented broadly, i.e., in an entire neighbourhood, rather than individual streets or sections.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/city-drivers-slow-down-for-lower-speed-limit-in-boston
Is one study...not the only one.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 02-28-2023
Welp, Waterloo reverses course on road safety...
https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-region/2023/02/27/split-waterloo-council-pumps-brakes-on-30-kmh-speed-limit.html
Folks, remember this, and throw it in the face of everyone in Waterloo region who EVER complains about road safety. Next time a bike lane is proposed and you see a parade of crocodile tears crying about how oppressed drivers in the city are, get ready to call them on their bullshit.
Honestly...I'm so sick and tired of the pandering to angry drivers.
Not only does this harm the neighbourhoods it's implemented in, it harms the effectiveness of the whole policy. Speed limits are shown to be most effective when applied broadly. Nobody is going to remember, "Gee, I'm on a minor collector outside ward 7 so I can do 50, oops, crossed into ward 7 and turned onto a local street, now I go 30". So the whole policy becomes less effective.
But I'm not surprised...there's a reason I left and it's because I didn't see meaningful progress being made in the timeframe that I was raising a child during...Maybe in 30 years, my daughter can think about immigrating back to Canada.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - timc - 02-28-2023
I had hoped that council would be bold and stick to their guns. I'm glad to see my councillor continued her support, for what it's worth.
But it's silly to make ward 7 have its own special limit.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 02-28-2023
(02-28-2023, 01:46 PM)timc Wrote: I had hoped that council would be bold and stick to their guns. I'm glad to see my councillor continued her support, for what it's worth.
But it's silly to make ward 7 have its own special limit.
Indeed. Even outside of road safety, it's pretty problematic...it sets a precedent for setting different policies for different wards based on the political inclinations of the councillors there, that's not something that should ever happen.
I suspect it's even more problematic if you look at the relative wealth of people in Ward 7 vs. other wards, vs. where people from Ward 7 drive vs. others. Probably you're going to see that wealthy people are allowed to speed through poorer neighbourhoods. Not as a rule, but on average, I'm betting that's how it works out.
Doubly offensive given the most dangerous ward for pedestrians is the University district.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 02-28-2023
(02-28-2023, 02:09 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I suspect it's even more problematic if you look at the relative wealth of people in Ward 7 vs. other wards, vs. where people from Ward 7 drive vs. others. Probably you're going to see that wealthy people are allowed to speed through poorer neighbourhoods. Not as a rule, but on average, I'm betting that's how it works out.
I don't understand this argument. You point out (I think) that ward 7 residents have higher incomes, on average, than the rest of the city. OK, fine that may be true. And they should drive at 30 km/h in their local neighbourhood, whereas other wards' residents will drive at 40 km/h in their local areas.
So, your issue is that the people from the 30 km/h neighbourhood can drive (speed through!) at 40 km/h in other neighbourhoods? Are you suggesting that they should drive at 30 km/h (because of higher average incomes in ward 7) regardless of whatever area they are in? Or something else?
(In any case, I believe property prices are higher in Beechwood, Laurelwood and Colonial Acres, at least.)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - dtkvictim - 02-28-2023
Quote:Planners further warned that whatever reduction is chosen, average speeds are not likely to fall by more than one to three km/h. The difference with a 30 km/h limit is that growing public frustration over lack of compliance might lead to increased calls for enforcement and increased calls for costly traffic-calming measures that city hall might have to implement.
Just imagine, how horrible that would be!
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - dtkvictim - 02-28-2023
(02-28-2023, 06:32 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(02-28-2023, 02:09 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I suspect it's even more problematic if you look at the relative wealth of people in Ward 7 vs. other wards, vs. where people from Ward 7 drive vs. others. Probably you're going to see that wealthy people are allowed to speed through poorer neighbourhoods. Not as a rule, but on average, I'm betting that's how it works out.
I don't understand this argument. You point out (I think) that ward 7 residents have higher incomes, on average, than the rest of the city. OK, fine that may be true. And they should drive at 30 km/h in their local neighbourhood, whereas other wards' residents will drive at 40 km/h in their local areas.
So, your issue is that the people from the 30 km/h neighbourhood can drive (speed through!) at 40 km/h in other neighbourhoods? Are you suggesting that they should drive at 30 km/h (because of higher average incomes in ward 7) regardless of whatever area they are in? Or something else?
(In any case, I believe property prices are higher in Beechwood, Laurelwood and Colonial Acres, at least.)
The argument is that the wealthy get the benefits of a speed reduction in their own neighbourhood, without having the adhere to it in other poorer neighbourhoods. Meaning that poorer neighbourhoods suffer the public health costs of higher speeds, in part at the hand of wealthier people who have exempted themselves from the issue.
I also wouldn't think that uptown has the highest incomes/wealth, especially factoring in cost of living. But regardless of what the statistics stay, it's still an equity issue.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-01-2023
(02-28-2023, 08:33 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:(02-28-2023, 06:32 PM)tomh009 Wrote: I don't understand this argument. You point out (I think) that ward 7 residents have higher incomes, on average, than the rest of the city. OK, fine that may be true. And they should drive at 30 km/h in their local neighbourhood, whereas other wards' residents will drive at 40 km/h in their local areas.
So, your issue is that the people from the 30 km/h neighbourhood can drive (speed through!) at 40 km/h in other neighbourhoods? Are you suggesting that they should drive at 30 km/h (because of higher average incomes in ward 7) regardless of whatever area they are in? Or something else?
(In any case, I believe property prices are higher in Beechwood, Laurelwood and Colonial Acres, at least.)
The argument is that the wealthy get the benefits of a speed reduction in their own neighbourhood, without having the adhere to it in other poorer neighbourhoods. Meaning that poorer neighbourhoods suffer the public health costs of higher speeds, in part at the hand of wealthier people who have exempted themselves from the issue.
I also wouldn't think that uptown has the highest incomes/wealth, especially factoring in cost of living. But regardless of what the statistics stay, it's still an equity issue.
This is exactly my thinking...thanks for clarifying.
I did think a bit about whether Ward 7 is the wealthiest, but I didn't look at stats Canada. I figured that Westmount was the most expensive neighbourhood in the city.
FWIW the project in general does actually worsen the equity of the traffic impact in the city given that the homes on major roads don't get any relief.