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+--- Thread: Road design, safety and Vision Zero (/showthread.php?tid=1409)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ac3r - 09-23-2022
(09-23-2022, 06:13 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Well...
https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/xkun2m/this_one_kinda_pissed_me_off_idiot_in_bike/
I mean it's hard to know the complete context, but certainly an example of the cyclist or pedestrian 'coming out of nowhere'.
Of course what's frustrating is this is how drivers describe 99% of collisions where they hit a VRU.
I'm gonna guess something like: "Oi bruv...yeah just hop the next car that comes by on your bike bruv...I've done it a million times...me and Callum will get it on video bruv...trust me it'll blow up on TikTok we'll go viral."
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 09-24-2022
(09-23-2022, 05:56 PM)ac3r Wrote:(09-23-2022, 06:13 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Well...
https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/xkun2m/this_one_kinda_pissed_me_off_idiot_in_bike/
I mean it's hard to know the complete context, but certainly an example of the cyclist or pedestrian 'coming out of nowhere'.
Of course what's frustrating is this is how drivers describe 99% of collisions where they hit a VRU.
I'm gonna guess something like: "Oi bruv...yeah just hop the next car that comes by on your bike bruv...I've done it a million times...me and Callum will get it on video bruv...trust me it'll blow up on TikTok we'll go viral."
I mean, you might guess it, but it would be damn impressive, given that I doubt there's any better visibility for the person on the bike than there was the person in the car.
It's this kind of assumption that is so harmful. Self described drivers frequently make statements where they suggest that pedestrians and cyclists are intentionally trying to make their lives difficult just by existing. By the same token, some people accuse drivers of being homicidal. And while I might feel that homicidal is more common among drivers than suicidal is among VRUs, it mostly doesn't matter, in 99.9999% of cases BOTH groups are merely trying to go about their day and it is apathy not malice which explains drivers behaviour and usually desperation, not malice which explains behaviour of VRUs.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 09-24-2022
So it looks like a large group of cycling advocates stopped traffic on Lakeshore Blvd in Toronto:
https://twitter.com/samwightt/status/1573120888228249600
I see this in the same vein as the tire deflators campaign. (Both are primarily an inconvenience only and delay people collectively about the same order of magnitude of time).
But this is the kind of thing I think we are going to start seeing more of. I have no surprise to see it happen in Toronto given the Mayor and Police abhorrent campaign of harassment and oppression of cyclists.
And of course, no surprise, but there are clear parallels to the protests in Amsterdam in the 70s.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - neonjoe - 09-24-2022
That’s Lakeshore Drive in Chicago. Not MTO approved traffic signals.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 09-24-2022
(09-23-2022, 05:56 PM)ac3r Wrote:(09-23-2022, 06:13 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Well...
https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/xkun2m/this_one_kinda_pissed_me_off_idiot_in_bike/
I mean it's hard to know the complete context, but certainly an example of the cyclist or pedestrian 'coming out of nowhere'.
Of course what's frustrating is this is how drivers describe 99% of collisions where they hit a VRU.
I'm gonna guess something like: "Oi bruv...yeah just hop the next car that comes by on your bike bruv...I've done it a million times...me and Callum will get it on video bruv...trust me it'll blow up on TikTok we'll go viral."
If the context were “we can’t see the stop sign the car is supposed to be stopped at”, then that is the kind of thing that could make a difference. But on re-watching a couple of times, I’m finding it hard to imagine any hidden context mattering in this particular case: the car makes a left turn at what seems to be a reasonable speed, then is unable to stop in time when the rider comes literally jumping out of the bushes. Even if the car could, in principle, stop in time, it’s unreasonable and more to the point unfair to expect motor vehicles to jam on their brakes wherever and whenever a rider wants to cross the road: there has to be some concept of taking turns and allowing people to complete turns they’ve already started. How does that rider behave around pedestrians and other riders? What if he had hit a child walking on the sidewalk?
One of the comments asserts that “In the Netherlands, that is 100% the car drivers fault”. If that is true, then their rules have gone overboard and are no longer protecting cyclists at large but rather oppressing others for the benefit of those few cyclists who behave irresponsibly.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 09-24-2022
(09-24-2022, 07:53 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: So it looks like a large group of cycling advocates stopped traffic on Lakeshore Blvd in Toronto:
https://twitter.com/samwightt/status/1573120888228249600
I see this in the same vein as the tire deflators campaign. (Both are primarily an inconvenience only and delay people collectively about the same order of magnitude of time).
But this is the kind of thing I think we are going to start seeing more of. I have no surprise to see it happen in Toronto given the Mayor and Police abhorrent campaign of harassment and oppression of cyclists.
And of course, no surprise, but there are clear parallels to the protests in Amsterdam in the 70s.
I actually consider this much more appropriate than the deflators. It’s an actual protest, with people congregating on the scene and making their demands known, rather than simply doing what is indistinguishable from random mischief other than the leaflets left behind. Also, if any one protester goes too far, they can be admonished by their fellow protesters or, if necessary, arrested; whereas if a tire deflator decides they’re not doing enough and smashes a window, it’s a lot harder for their compatriots to tell them they’ve crossed the line.
My only concern is that they don’t seem to be leaving any way for the stopped drivers to leave. If the car in front, for example, is just stuck there for hours (days? weeks?) I can’t agree with that. Street closing protests need to open a lane to allow stopped cars to leave. Better yet, block the entrance to a road segment, not the exit. It will cause traffic chaos, but not effectively imprison some people.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 09-24-2022
(09-24-2022, 08:41 AM)neonjoe Wrote: That’s Lakeshore Drive in Chicago. Not MTO approved traffic signals.
Derp!
I'm not sure why I thought it was Toronto...no CN Tower.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 09-24-2022
(09-24-2022, 09:13 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:(09-23-2022, 05:56 PM)ac3r Wrote: I'm gonna guess something like: "Oi bruv...yeah just hop the next car that comes by on your bike bruv...I've done it a million times...me and Callum will get it on video bruv...trust me it'll blow up on TikTok we'll go viral."
If the context were “we can’t see the stop sign the car is supposed to be stopped at”, then that is the kind of thing that could make a difference. But on re-watching a couple of times, I’m finding it hard to imagine any hidden context mattering in this particular case: the car makes a left turn at what seems to be a reasonable speed, then is unable to stop in time when the rider comes literally jumping out of the bushes. Even if the car could, in principle, stop in time, it’s unreasonable and more to the point unfair to expect motor vehicles to jam on their brakes wherever and whenever a rider wants to cross the road: there has to be some concept of taking turns and allowing people to complete turns they’ve already started. How does that rider behave around pedestrians and other riders? What if he had hit a child walking on the sidewalk?
One of the comments asserts that “In the Netherlands, that is 100% the car drivers fault”. If that is true, then their rules have gone overboard and are no longer protecting cyclists at large but rather oppressing others for the benefit of those few cyclists who behave irresponsibly.
Everyone is so caught up with fault...I am not saying that some hidden piece of context makes the driver at fault.
But was this cyclist recklessly jumping their bikes through the trees onto an active roadway? Maybe. Were they swerving into the trees to avoid some other obstacle that appeared on the other side of the hedge? Maybe that too.
The point is, I don't know what's happening there, so I'm not going to claim to understand the motivations and decision making of everyone involved.
As for the Netherlands, people talk a lot about this, and again, it comes from a North American obsession with fault...I have only theories about why we are so obsessed.
FWIW...I am not a legal scholar in the Netherlands, I know they hold drivers to a higher standard than other road users, but the reason why the Netherlands is safe isn't because their drivers are better. Believe me I know....the main route I take to the city centre is closed right now, and detoured onto a road without bike infra. Most of the time this road is fine, but it serves a business park, so at rush hour, there are a fair number of cars. Many of the drivers who are anxious to get home are aggressive and pushy as they would be in North America. The only difference is that they are surrounded by thousands of cyclists, so they really don't get very far, but I've had plenty enough close passes and drivers honking at cyclists, that I take a different route home when I have my daughter on the bike. (And the fact that I can take a different route is nice.)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 09-24-2022
(09-24-2022, 09:20 AM)ijmorlan Wrote:(09-24-2022, 07:53 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: So it looks like a large group of cycling advocates stopped traffic on Lakeshore Blvd in Toronto:
https://twitter.com/samwightt/status/1573120888228249600
I see this in the same vein as the tire deflators campaign. (Both are primarily an inconvenience only and delay people collectively about the same order of magnitude of time).
But this is the kind of thing I think we are going to start seeing more of. I have no surprise to see it happen in Toronto given the Mayor and Police abhorrent campaign of harassment and oppression of cyclists.
And of course, no surprise, but there are clear parallels to the protests in Amsterdam in the 70s.
I actually consider this much more appropriate than the deflators. It’s an actual protest, with people congregating on the scene and making their demands known, rather than simply doing what is indistinguishable from random mischief other than the leaflets left behind. Also, if any one protester goes too far, they can be admonished by their fellow protesters or, if necessary, arrested; whereas if a tire deflator decides they’re not doing enough and smashes a window, it’s a lot harder for their compatriots to tell them they’ve crossed the line.
My only concern is that they don’t seem to be leaving any way for the stopped drivers to leave. If the car in front, for example, is just stuck there for hours (days? weeks?) I can’t agree with that. Street closing protests need to open a lane to allow stopped cars to leave. Better yet, block the entrance to a road segment, not the exit. It will cause traffic chaos, but not effectively imprison some people.
On the second paragraph...they were not stopped for weeks, nor days, nor even hours...it was all of a few minutes. But even if it was hours, this kind of thing happens all the time with car crashes. If they did block it for hours (never mind days or weeks) and drivers somehow miraculously did not choose to just murder a couple dozen cyclists instead of be delayed, they would have been able to turn around and reverse out, as would happen if there was a crash closing a road for an extended period.
Honestly...I don't know what to make of this paragraph, to me it sounds like fear mongering claiming people were "imprisoned". the only thing they were imprisoned by are their cars.
On the first, I'm not surprised you feel this way, but I'm rather surprised by the reasoning you give. I find it to be rather strange reasoning...protests do not have to look a certain way. I'll admit the reasoning for protests looking a different way is usually a result of an oppressive government that limits public gatherings, but it doesn't mean that different kinds of protests aren't legitimate protests.
We see in this country, constant leaflets and advertising against abortion, and I feel that's a legitimate form of protest...I don't agree with the message of course, but I don't think it's not protest.
I also disagree with the assertion that it's easier to control a large protest. It's far easier to control a smaller group of people committing targeted mischief outside of view than it is to control a large crowd of people. Very simply, US police are very effective at encouraging violence in protests for example by kettling the crowd. There's nothing the organizers can do to stop that. A group of people cornered and threatened in a high intensity dynamic situation will respond exactly as any animal would.
The reason I would expect you to see it differently, is because of the North American toxic combination of ownership and vehicle identity. While the effect, I believe is identical (delaying people collectively about the same amount of time), the tyre deflators are both more targeted (a few SUV drivers are delayed a lot of time individually, rather than everyone in a car delayed only a dozen minutes or so), and they do so in a way that probably most people will feel more violated in...a lot of people fly off the handle at the idea of someone touching their car. You know, despite it being outside and around people.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 09-24-2022
(09-24-2022, 10:38 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:(09-24-2022, 09:20 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: I actually consider this much more appropriate than the deflators. It’s an actual protest, with people congregating on the scene and making their demands known, rather than simply doing what is indistinguishable from random mischief other than the leaflets left behind. Also, if any one protester goes too far, they can be admonished by their fellow protesters or, if necessary, arrested; whereas if a tire deflator decides they’re not doing enough and smashes a window, it’s a lot harder for their compatriots to tell them they’ve crossed the line.
My only concern is that they don’t seem to be leaving any way for the stopped drivers to leave. If the car in front, for example, is just stuck there for hours (days? weeks?) I can’t agree with that. Street closing protests need to open a lane to allow stopped cars to leave. Better yet, block the entrance to a road segment, not the exit. It will cause traffic chaos, but not effectively imprison some people.
On the second paragraph...they were not stopped for weeks, nor days, nor even hours...it was all of a few minutes. But even if it was hours, this kind of thing happens all the time with car crashes. If they did block it for hours (never mind days or weeks) and drivers somehow miraculously did not choose to just murder a couple dozen cyclists instead of be delayed, they would have been able to turn around and reverse out, as would happen if there was a crash closing a road for an extended period.
Honestly...I don't know what to make of this paragraph, to me it sounds like fear mongering claiming people were "imprisoned". the only thing they were imprisoned by are their cars.
[…]
I’m not going to reply to everything because I don’t have time right now. You do make a lot of good points, especially about where violence actually comes from in many protest situations. I would mostly say that overall I’m expressing an attitude, and I don’t know the details. For example, you indicate it was only for a few minutes. That puts a completely different spin on the whole situation. So to ascribe excessively precise motives or conclusions to me isn’t really accurate. I’m certainly not fear mongering, just saying that if the protest completely closes the exit from an area that people are trapped.
I did want to make one specific point: You might want to consider if you’re now making an ableist assumption; for some people who are driving, if their vehicle is immobilized they’re pretty much immobilized too. And even for others, if ones vehicle is trapped then one is pretty much trapped nearby, because it’s not really feasible to leave the vehicle behind; one won’t know when to come back and pick it up as the protest is ending and the police will be forced to tow it, leading to large impound fees.
Also, pointing out that car crashes can have a similar result isn’t really on point. Just because bad things sometimes happen doesn’t mean that anybody is justified in making sure those bad things happen.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 09-24-2022
(09-24-2022, 03:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(09-24-2022, 10:38 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: On the second paragraph...they were not stopped for weeks, nor days, nor even hours...it was all of a few minutes. But even if it was hours, this kind of thing happens all the time with car crashes. If they did block it for hours (never mind days or weeks) and drivers somehow miraculously did not choose to just murder a couple dozen cyclists instead of be delayed, they would have been able to turn around and reverse out, as would happen if there was a crash closing a road for an extended period.
Honestly...I don't know what to make of this paragraph, to me it sounds like fear mongering claiming people were "imprisoned". the only thing they were imprisoned by are their cars.
[…]
I’m not going to reply to everything because I don’t have time right now. You do make a lot of good points, especially about where violence actually comes from in many protest situations. I would mostly say that overall I’m expressing an attitude, and I don’t know the details. For example, you indicate it was only for a few minutes. That puts a completely different spin on the whole situation. So to ascribe excessively precise motives or conclusions to me isn’t really accurate. I’m certainly not fear mongering, just saying that if the protest completely closes the exit from an area that people are trapped.
I did want to make one specific point: You might want to consider if you’re now making an ableist assumption; for some people who are driving, if their vehicle is immobilized they’re pretty much immobilized too. And even for others, if ones vehicle is trapped then one is pretty much trapped nearby, because it’s not really feasible to leave the vehicle behind; one won’t know when to come back and pick it up as the protest is ending and the police will be forced to tow it, leading to large impound fees.
Also, pointing out that car crashes can have a similar result isn’t really on point. Just because bad things sometimes happen doesn’t mean that anybody is justified in making sure those bad things happen.
My point was tongue and cheek, speaking generally to the car dependency that many people are trapped in, not literally suggesting that everyone just get out and leave their cars.
Regardless, the vehicles were not immobilised. If the intersection was closed long term, vehicles could be reversed out. Nobody is trapped any more than they would be trapped in any traffic jam. The only reason they did not move is because it was only closed for a short duration.
When talking about a crash on the 401 nobody ever describes it as "hundreds of people imprisoned" (though that's the way it may feel when I am driving there) even though it is exactly the same situation. That's why I call it fear mongering, which is maybe not the right term, but the point is, you wouldn't describe the same situation that way if caused by a crash instead of a protest.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - neonjoe - 09-25-2022
As someone who primarily drives I’m fine with the type of protest done by the cyclists. It’s their right to protest, they are protesting for a cause in the actual venue that the cause centres around. This is different than protesting vaccines by blocking downtown streets. They are also protesting in the public realm and not personally attacking ones property, some people feel almost as violated it something they own is touched as if they were actually touched in the public realm.
Good cycling infrastructure and safety makes the roads better for all modes of transport,
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 09-25-2022
(09-24-2022, 04:16 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: When talking about a crash on the 401 nobody ever describes it as "hundreds of people imprisoned" (though that's the way it may feel when I am driving there) even though it is exactly the same situation. That's why I call it fear mongering, which is maybe not the right term, but the point is, you wouldn't describe the same situation that way if caused by a crash instead of a protest.
OK, I think I understand better what you’re saying about crash vs. protest.
Although I have heard that police can be really bad at handling these situations. I have vague recollections of people being ticketed for reversing out; apparently they’re just supposed to sit there for hours, even though within well under an hour of the crash occurring it would be no problem for the police to organize a structured, managed, safe process of wrong-way-running the vehicles to the last interchange.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 09-26-2022
(09-25-2022, 08:10 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(09-24-2022, 04:16 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: When talking about a crash on the 401 nobody ever describes it as "hundreds of people imprisoned" (though that's the way it may feel when I am driving there) even though it is exactly the same situation. That's why I call it fear mongering, which is maybe not the right term, but the point is, you wouldn't describe the same situation that way if caused by a crash instead of a protest.
OK, I think I understand better what you’re saying about crash vs. protest.
Although I have heard that police can be really bad at handling these situations. I have vague recollections of people being ticketed for reversing out; apparently they’re just supposed to sit there for hours, even though within well under an hour of the crash occurring it would be no problem for the police to organize a structured, managed, safe process of wrong-way-running the vehicles to the last interchange.
Yeah...the police are pretty inconsistent. I've had friends stopped for hours and police wouldn't say how long and wouldn't let them reverse out. But on the other hand, I've been stuck in a similar traffic jam from a serious crash and the police in less than half an hour of arriving conducted an orderly reversal up the shoulder to the last on-ramp.
I have no idea why there is the difference (and the right thing IMO is to do a reversal if police intend to close the road for an extended duration--say 2-3 times the time it takes to actually do the reversal) but police are generally just not that consistent. And, honestly, it could be a local vs. provincial police difference, who knows.
FWIW...and this is very much a tangent, the same thing should happen with a stuck GO train. Keeping people on a train car, especially one as packed as a rush hour train for an extended period of time is entirely unacceptable, there should be a procedure and a process for evacuating passengers in a timely fashion. Again, context dependent, but it's unacceptable to leave people for hours standing on a train as has happened.
These kind of unusual circumstance procedures are something nobody in society seems to be good at...
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - jamincan - 09-26-2022
We were hearing the same issue with airplanes that were delayed unloading at Pearson. In general, I think most people handle exceptional circumstances poorly.