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+--- Thread: Amalgamation (/showthread.php?tid=435)
RE: Amalgamation - jeffster - 03-29-2019
(03-28-2019, 11:04 PM)tvot Wrote:(03-27-2019, 03:02 PM)jeffster Wrote: 6) Ownerships (Kitchener Utilities, Kitchener Rangers, Kitchener City Hall) Waterloo, owns nothing of significant importance like this. The U of Waterloo remains U of Waterloo no matter the outcome.
7) Festivals & Special Events -- Kitchener has way more going for this than Waterloo. Bluesfest, Rib and Beer Fest, Multicultural Festival, Cruising on King, Christkindl Market, etc. I think Waterloo has the Jazz Fest, Comedy Fest and Buskers, but Kitchener does have more going on, especially the summer.
8) Kitchener Memorial Auditorium. The place is historically significant, and very busy, not just with the Rangers, but with concerts (Waterloo really has nothing), and Shows (RV Show, Home and Garden Show, Wine and Food Show, etc). Not that the name could be changed though.
6. Doesn't Waterloo North Hydro count as something if Kitchener Utilities counts? Waterloo also has a city hall, but it's mediocre and I would definitely approve of Kitchener City Hall being the seat of local government if amalgamation happens.
7. Jazz Fest and Buskers are pretty big, not Blues Fest big, but respectable and definitely a draw to out-of-town visitors. Living in Uptown I'm actually amazed how much is going on in the summer, there is something in the public square every weekend and Waterloo Park multiple weekends a month (medieval festival, afro-canadian festival, other cultural groups).
8. There are regional, provincial, and national sporting events at RIM Park and the Waterloo Memorial Rec Complex, not really any concerts, but they are respectably busy. The Aud still wins.
FYI: I'm just addressing these points alone, not really in relation to how things would play out if amalgamation were in play.
As a life-long Waterloo resident who worked at a Kitchener community centre in high school, I agree that in general Kitchener seems to be the better run city on average, but I'm not sure how much that will have to do with anything the province actually does to us.
Yes, Waterloo does have it's own hydro, though not its own gas company. A merger of Kitchener-Wilmot and Waterloo-North wouldn't be too difficult. Both utilities work for the cities. Cambridge owns none of its hydro or gas.
As for Waterloo City Hall, I was under the impression that they still were renting their current digs. I don't think everyone would expect that City Hall would be located in Waterloo -- and again, though, this is going to be an issue for Waterloo residents as well as Cambridge residents. I do know that Kitchener City Hall was originally designed to be built higher if needed, but unsure if that is still possible with todays engineering standards.
You're probably right though, if Ford wants to get this done, he'll just do it and make decisions without too much thought whether or not we want it. The main issue being the size of the government in this region, which is really large.
Councillors in Kitchener are 1 per 24,000
In Cambridge it's 1 per 17,000
In Waterloo it's 1 per 14,500
Collectively, just at the local level, there are 25 councillors, this is the same as Toronto. This doesn't include the region plus the townships. This seems to be the issue. But at the same time, these councillors only work part-time, it's not a real job like it is in Toronto.
I don't think amalgamation is the answer, but the region should try to come up with a better solution. But whatever the they come up with, people are going to be pissed off.
RE: Amalgamation - ijmorlan - 03-29-2019
(03-29-2019, 03:15 PM)jeffster Wrote: You're probably right though, if Ford wants to get this done, he'll just do it and make decisions without too much thought whether or not we want it. The main issue being the size of the government in this region, which is really large.
Councillors in Kitchener are 1 per 24,000
In Cambridge it's 1 per 17,000
In Waterloo it's 1 per 14,500
Collectively, just at the local level, there are 25 councillors, this is the same as Toronto. This doesn't include the region plus the townships. This seems to be the issue. But at the same time, these councillors only work part-time, it's not a real job like it is in Toronto.
I don't think amalgamation is the answer, but the region should try to come up with a better solution. But whatever the they come up with, people are going to be pissed off.
The number of councillors is not a problem here in Waterloo Region. As you point out, they’re not even full-time, so they don’t cost much. Lots of councillors means easier access to decision makers. There are various criteria for evaluating the number of councillors, some of which push towards few and some towards many. It’s a balance. In Toronto, cutting the number of councillors in half was clearly inappropriate — the number of constituents per councillor is now very high, to the extent that I understand the total number of office staff didn’t shrink at all. And it’s harder to staff all the boards and committees that need councillor representation in Toronto.
If more councillors means better decisions, we should have more councillors. Councillor salaries are an utter triviality compared to the budget they are tasked with maintaining.
RE: Amalgamation - panamaniac - 03-29-2019
Are the Kitchener, Waterloo, and Cambridge councillors not full-time positions?
RE: Amalgamation - taylortbb - 03-29-2019
(03-29-2019, 05:47 PM)panamaniac Wrote: Are the Kitchener, Waterloo, and Cambridge councillors not full-time positions?
No. The mayors and regional chair are full (and paid as such), but the city/regional councillor positions are part time and receive a small salary as a result.
RE: Amalgamation - jeffster - 03-29-2019
(03-29-2019, 05:24 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(03-29-2019, 03:15 PM)jeffster Wrote: You're probably right though, if Ford wants to get this done, he'll just do it and make decisions without too much thought whether or not we want it. The main issue being the size of the government in this region, which is really large.
Councillors in Kitchener are 1 per 24,000
In Cambridge it's 1 per 17,000
In Waterloo it's 1 per 14,500
Collectively, just at the local level, there are 25 councillors, this is the same as Toronto. This doesn't include the region plus the townships. This seems to be the issue. But at the same time, these councillors only work part-time, it's not a real job like it is in Toronto.
I don't think amalgamation is the answer, but the region should try to come up with a better solution. But whatever the they come up with, people are going to be pissed off.
The number of councillors is not a problem here in Waterloo Region. As you point out, they’re not even full-time, so they don’t cost much. Lots of councillors means easier access to decision makers. There are various criteria for evaluating the number of councillors, some of which push towards few and some towards many. It’s a balance. In Toronto, cutting the number of councillors in half was clearly inappropriate — the number of constituents per councillor is now very high, to the extent that I understand the total number of office staff didn’t shrink at all. And it’s harder to staff all the boards and committees that need councillor representation in Toronto.
If more councillors means better decisions, we should have more councillors. Councillor salaries are an utter triviality compared to the budget they are tasked with maintaining.
I agree. And I am unsure how it would ever work if we went the same route as Toronto. Toronto itself is now lined up the same as the province and federal ridings, which is 25. This area would only have 5 if we were to mimic. So you'd have Kitchener-Centre, Kitchener South-Hespeler, Kitchener-Conestoga, Cambridge and Waterloo. You could see how this would create major issues.
Although one thing, the SportsPlex in Cambridge would be built somewhere in Cambridge without all the bitching that is going on there now, Cambridge would also likely start getting taller buildings, and there would never be another Northdale.
I could also see the Sunlife parking lot by Grand River Hospital ripped apart and have a large auditorium built there to replace The Aud.
RE: Amalgamation - jgsz - 10-25-2019
Amalgamation is off the table for now. I guess Thug Ford's government has more pressing issues to deal with.
Province will not impose amalgamation on municipalities
RE: Amalgamation - westwardloo - 10-25-2019
(10-25-2019, 10:52 AM)jgsz Wrote: Amalgamation is off the table for now. I guess Thug Ford's government has more pressing issues to deal with.This is disappointing news in my opinion. This is the one thing I thought Ford would be good for. The region needs to combine into one city. not because i think there will be cost savings, but because we will have stronger presence provincially, federally, and internationally as 1 city of 600k versus 3 cities of roughly 200k. I also would like to see amalgamation so that the region has 1 planning department, 1 library system, 1 arts and culture, and 1 fire department.
Province will not impose amalgamation on municipalities
RE: Amalgamation - panamaniac - 10-25-2019
Well, at least they didn't announce amalgamations and then cancel the intiative ....
RE: Amalgamation - KevinL - 10-25-2019
(10-25-2019, 11:20 AM)westwardloo Wrote:(10-25-2019, 10:52 AM)jgsz Wrote: Amalgamation is off the table for now. I guess Thug Ford's government has more pressing issues to deal with.This is disappointing news in my opinion. This is the one thing I thought Ford would be good for. The region needs to combine into one city. not because i think there will be cost savings, but because we will have stronger presence provincially, federally, and internationally as 1 city of 600k versus 3 cities of roughly 200k. I also would like to see amalgamation so that the region has 1 planning department, 1 library system, 1 arts and culture, and 1 fire department.
Province will not impose amalgamation on municipalities
The province isn't completely ruling out amalgamation; they are just saying it won't be imposed by them onto municipalities. A local initiative could still go forward if there is support at that level.
RE: Amalgamation - ijmorlan - 10-25-2019
(10-25-2019, 11:20 AM)westwardloo Wrote: This is disappointing news in my opinion. This is the one thing I thought Ford would be good for. The region needs to combine into one city. not because i think there will be cost savings, but because we will have stronger presence provincially, federally, and internationally as 1 city of 600k versus 3 cities of roughly 200k. I also would like to see amalgamation so that the region has 1 planning department, 1 library system, 1 arts and culture, and 1 fire department.
All the changes in your last sentence can happen without amalgamation. I actually agree that the fire department and library should be considered for moving to the Region.
And the Region already does stuff to promote the Region as a whole. If there is anything it isn’t doing, it can do it. There is no need to wait for the constituent cities and townships to go away.
I’m moderately shocked. Usually this provincial government stomps all over everything (see Toronto city council, where a proposal that had been developed over time with ample consultation was thrown out in favour of whatever Ford thought was good that day, right in the middle of the municipal election).
RE: Amalgamation - danbrotherston - 10-25-2019
(10-25-2019, 01:50 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(10-25-2019, 11:20 AM)westwardloo Wrote: This is disappointing news in my opinion. This is the one thing I thought Ford would be good for. The region needs to combine into one city. not because i think there will be cost savings, but because we will have stronger presence provincially, federally, and internationally as 1 city of 600k versus 3 cities of roughly 200k. I also would like to see amalgamation so that the region has 1 planning department, 1 library system, 1 arts and culture, and 1 fire department.
All the changes in your last sentence can happen without amalgamation. I actually agree that the fire department and library should be considered for moving to the Region.
And the Region already does stuff to promote the Region as a whole. If there is anything it isn’t doing, it can do it. There is no need to wait for the constituent cities and townships to go away.
I’m moderately shocked. Usually this provincial government stomps all over everything (see Toronto city council, where a proposal that had been developed over time with ample consultation was thrown out in favour of whatever Ford thought was good that day, right in the middle of the municipal election).
Ironically, I use the library system as an argument against amalgamation. KPL, WPL, and Region all do very different things, have very different needs, and also very different successes. If we had one library system, the townships would not have anywhere near the library service the enjoy now, nor would WPL and KPL have the unique successes we see right now.
RE: Amalgamation - westwardloo - 10-25-2019
(10-25-2019, 01:50 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:In my opinion the region has done a good job promote itself. but then we have 3 different cities going out and promoting them selves as well. The whole process is convoluted. I think the region could attract new business in an less complicated fashion if each city wasn't looking out for its own interests.(10-25-2019, 11:20 AM)westwardloo Wrote: This is disappointing news in my opinion. This is the one thing I thought Ford would be good for. The region needs to combine into one city. not because i think there will be cost savings, but because we will have stronger presence provincially, federally, and internationally as 1 city of 600k versus 3 cities of roughly 200k. I also would like to see amalgamation so that the region has 1 planning department, 1 library system, 1 arts and culture, and 1 fire department.
All the changes in your last sentence can happen without amalgamation. I actually agree that the fire department and library should be considered for moving to the Region.
And the Region already does stuff to promote the Region as a whole. If there is anything it isn’t doing, it can do it. There is no need to wait for the constituent cities and townships to go away.
I’m moderately shocked. Usually this provincial government stomps all over everything (see Toronto city council, where a proposal that had been developed over time with ample consultation was thrown out in favour of whatever Ford thought was good that day, right in the middle of the municipal election).
In regards to the planning departments. We have all three cities plus the region determining where development should occur, where bike lanes should be placed, where parks should be built. We are a region that is seriously lacking in certain amenities that a city of similar sizes have (Olympic size pool, sports stadium, art gallery/event space, convention centre, hospitals that weren't built in 1950's).
I just don't see the reason why we as a region wouldn't want to amalgamate. Endless amounts of city departments would finally have a coordinated effort in terms of providing services to the residents. on that note, personally I would like to see the region kept and the three main cities amalgamate. I would sever off a bit of the townships into the new city, mainly breslau and bloomingdale. The townships would continue to be run as rural areas, but the urban centres would be one cohesive city.
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RE: Amalgamation - Spokes - 10-25-2019
I think this is the last we'll hear of amalgamation for the next while
RE: Amalgamation - tomh009 - 10-26-2019
(10-25-2019, 02:14 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Ironically, I use the library system as an argument against amalgamation. KPL, WPL, and Region all do very different things, have very different needs, and also very different successes. If we had one library system, the townships would not have anywhere near the library service the enjoy now, nor would WPL and KPL have the unique successes we see right now.
Why would KPL and WPL have very different needs? (The regional library, yes, it does need to do things differently in the townships, but there is no reason why that couldn't be done by a single library system, either.)
RE: Amalgamation - ijmorlan - 10-26-2019
(10-25-2019, 02:45 PM)westwardloo Wrote: In my opinion the region has done a good job promote itself. but then we have 3 different cities going out and promoting them selves as well. The whole process is convoluted. I think the region could attract new business in an less complicated fashion if each city wasn't looking out for its own interests.
In regards to the planning departments. We have all three cities plus the region determining where development should occur, where bike lanes should be placed, where parks should be built. We are a region that is seriously lacking in certain amenities that a city of similar sizes have (Olympic size pool, sports stadium, art gallery/event space, convention centre, hospitals that weren't built in 1950's).
I just don't see the reason why we as a region wouldn't want to amalgamate. Endless amounts of city departments would finally have a coordinated effort in terms of providing services to the residents. on that note, personally I would like to see the region kept and the three main cities amalgamate. I would sever off a bit of the townships into the new city, mainly breslau and bloomingdale. The townships would continue to be run as rural areas, but the urban centres would be one cohesive city.
I agree that the whole Region should be promoted as one place with several areas within it. Waterloo and Kitchener, for example, should definitely not be poaching from each other but rather supporting each other. I don’t know much about the Region and cities’ promotional efforts but I hope they aren’t working against each other.
You may have a point about planning. I seem to recall some discussion here about cities doing a good job on some bike lanes, then running into problems with Regional planning. But if amalgamation gives us a planning department that is all about moving motor vehicle traffic across the city, we won’t be better off than we are now.
I’m interested to see that you would like to see just the cities amalgamate. Other discussions that I recall have either focussed on KW, or on the whole Region becoming a city like Ottawa or Hamilton (both of which start way out in the country; I believe Hamilton borders Waterloo Region). It would be interesting to see the effect of a 3-city merger. I suspect the combined city would be accused of throwing its weight around on Regional Council; if we kept representation the same, we would then have 4 township representatives, one from each township, and 11 representatives from the combined city, or 9 if we kept the same number of Regional councillors plus the (now single) mayor.
I’m just glad that Ford isn’t going to push through a unilateral amalgamation (or at least, is putting it off for a time; who knows what he will decide next month). If it is to happen, it should arise out of discussions at the municipal level, not be imposed from above. I continue to believe that we should combine individual items as it makes sense to do so, rather than insisting that everything be amalgamated as would happen if the political entities are re-arranged.