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+--- Thread: Road design, safety and Vision Zero (/showthread.php?tid=1409)
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 03-21-2021
A good article. And you frequently see this used by trucks in practice. However, it works less well if both streets are two lanes as the truck would need to veer into the opposing traffic's lane. On multilane street intersections, though, there is no need to go for the huge radius.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-21-2021
(03-21-2021, 10:38 PM)tomh009 Wrote: A good article. And you frequently see this used by trucks in practice. However, it works less well if both streets are two lanes as the truck would need to veer into the opposing traffic's lane. On multilane street intersections, though, there is no need to go for the huge radius.
Drivers can veer into the oncoming lane on two lane roads as well. This is one of the purposes of setting the stop bar back (something which many drivers ignore) in order to allow turning vehicles to enter the oncoming lane. It's a little harder to veer into the oncoming lane on the err...NOT receiving lane, but it can be done.
And keep in mind, that on two narrow two lane roads it is even rarer for these types of vehicles to be seen, thus their turns are expected to be even more extreme in this manner.
The question comes back to what we are prioritizing, the vast majority of our roads should in no way prioritize movement of trucks like this. Many of our roads should not prioritize anything bigger than a sedan. Even drivers of just large pickups should be uncomfortable on residential streets.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 03-22-2021
Many roads, yes. Most, even. But even ignoring big trucks, we should consider which streets are likely to have bus routes in the future: buses also need more space than cars, although not as much as tractor-trailers.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-22-2021
I believe garbage trucks, buses and firetrucks (and medium trucks of all kinds) can navigate a 9 m turn radius without significant disruption.
It was roads without bus routes or major commercial destinations can manage with a smaller turn radii designed for sedans 1-3 m...larger vehicles can still navigate those roads by significantly exceeding the single lane space, but those vehicles are unusual, no need for to design for them. There's an argument to be made for garbage trucks as being "frequent", but those come 1-2 times per week, not a high frequency. And emergency vehicles like firetrucks are already intended to monopolize the whole road.
But I mean, this is the recommendation of our complete streets guide in Kitchener, it's not a particularly extreme position. Yet our regional engineers routinely (to this day) use 15m+ turn radii on residential streets. The disconnect is enormous.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 11:38 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I believe garbage trucks, buses and firetrucks (and medium trucks of all kinds) can navigate a 9 m turn radius without significant disruption.
It was roads without bus routes or major commercial destinations can manage with a smaller turn radii designed for sedans 1-3 m...larger vehicles can still navigate those roads by significantly exceeding the single lane space, but those vehicles are unusual, no need for to design for them. There's an argument to be made for garbage trucks as being "frequent", but those come 1-2 times per week, not a high frequency. And emergency vehicles like firetrucks are already intended to monopolize the whole road.
But I mean, this is the recommendation of our complete streets guide in Kitchener, it's not a particularly extreme position. Yet our regional engineers routinely (to this day) use 15m+ turn radii on residential streets. The disconnect is enormous.
Is it the regional engineers using 15m, whereas the city engineers are following the recommendations?
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 12:04 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(03-22-2021, 11:38 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I believe garbage trucks, buses and firetrucks (and medium trucks of all kinds) can navigate a 9 m turn radius without significant disruption.
It was roads without bus routes or major commercial destinations can manage with a smaller turn radii designed for sedans 1-3 m...larger vehicles can still navigate those roads by significantly exceeding the single lane space, but those vehicles are unusual, no need for to design for them. There's an argument to be made for garbage trucks as being "frequent", but those come 1-2 times per week, not a high frequency. And emergency vehicles like firetrucks are already intended to monopolize the whole road.
But I mean, this is the recommendation of our complete streets guide in Kitchener, it's not a particularly extreme position. Yet our regional engineers routinely (to this day) use 15m+ turn radii on residential streets. The disconnect is enormous.
Is it the regional engineers using 15m, whereas the city engineers are following the recommendations?
Yes, while it's not hard and fast (there are better regional engineers, and worse city engineers) in my experience city engineers are on average far more progressive. The complete streets guide is an example of real progress, but even in individual projects, they often do better without that specific guidance.
Regional engineers on average seem to be focused almost exclusively on maximizing vehicular throughput. There are some signs of change (regional engineers called it a good thing that speeds decreased with the COVID pilot, also, the COVID pilot), but they have a lot of catching up to do. And worse, their roads are the biggest problem with road safety and with active transport in the region.
My pointing out of the city guide was only to demonstrate that my ask (9 m corner radii maximum with a 3 meter typical for smaller roads) isn't a crazy ask, and is in fact the recommendation in certain places.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - ijmorlan - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 11:38 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I believe garbage trucks, buses and firetrucks (and medium trucks of all kinds) can navigate a 9 m turn radius without significant disruption.
Don’t forget there is a choice of vehicle to buy for these purposes. There is no valid reason why smaller European service vehicles or variations on them couldn’t be used here; rather than designing the street for an inappropriate vehicle, design the vehicle for the intended environment.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - plam - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 03:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(03-22-2021, 11:38 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I believe garbage trucks, buses and firetrucks (and medium trucks of all kinds) can navigate a 9 m turn radius without significant disruption.
Don’t forget there is a choice of vehicle to buy for these purposes. There is no valid reason why smaller European service vehicles or variations on them couldn’t be used here; rather than designing the street for an inappropriate vehicle, design the vehicle for the intended environment.
Definitely.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 05:33 PM)plam Wrote:(03-22-2021, 03:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Don’t forget there is a choice of vehicle to buy for these purposes. There is no valid reason why smaller European service vehicles or variations on them couldn’t be used here; rather than designing the street for an inappropriate vehicle, design the vehicle for the intended environment.
Definitely.
Snowplows also, I frequently hear arguments that curb to curb distance cannot be below about 4.5 meters otherwise plow operators need to slow down.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 03:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:(03-22-2021, 11:38 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I believe garbage trucks, buses and firetrucks (and medium trucks of all kinds) can navigate a 9 m turn radius without significant disruption.
Don’t forget there is a choice of vehicle to buy for these purposes. There is no valid reason why smaller European service vehicles or variations on them couldn’t be used here; rather than designing the street for an inappropriate vehicle, design the vehicle for the intended environment.
Yes. Japanese buses and garbage trucks are smaller, too, and even GRT is buying some smaller buses. The downside is capacity: for garbage trucks, for example, it means more frequent trips to the landfill, and potentially either a longer day (or more drivers) to do the same amount of pickups. I don't have any data, though, on how significant this impact would be.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-29-2021
After much heel dragging, I finally published my proposal for an improved Benton and Frederick St. in DTK.
I'd appreciate anyone taking a look, as well, as comments, feedback, signing the petition, sharing it, whatever.
It'd be nice too if someone could post over on Reddit (and FB I suppose), my social media reach is pretty much restricted to Twitter and Youtube.
betterbenton.netlify.app/
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 03-29-2021
Thanks, Daniel, very thorough and a solid proposal. Personally, on the Benton part I would like to see some additional width to the currently very narrow sidewalks, whether by dropping the traffic lanes to 3.3-3.5m or by reducing the intermediate strip and/or the bike lines a bit. But I'm picking nits here ...
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-29-2021
(03-29-2021, 04:13 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Thanks, Daniel, very thorough and a solid proposal. Personally, on the Benton part I would like to see some additional width to the currently very narrow sidewalks, whether by dropping the traffic lanes to 3.3-3.5m or by reducing the intermediate strip and/or the bike lines a bit. But I'm picking nits here ...
I completely agree, and I think the region is planning on rebuilding that entire section, so it's likely that would be in the cards.
My proposal was based around the idea that this could be retrofitted into the existing design. It would be very hard to widen the sidewalks in that context because the storm drains would be covered by the sidewalk extension.
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - tomh009 - 03-29-2021
(03-29-2021, 04:45 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:(03-29-2021, 04:13 PM)tomh009 Wrote: Thanks, Daniel, very thorough and a solid proposal. Personally, on the Benton part I would like to see some additional width to the currently very narrow sidewalks, whether by dropping the traffic lanes to 3.3-3.5m or by reducing the intermediate strip and/or the bike lines a bit. But I'm picking nits here ...
I completely agree, and I think the region is planning on rebuilding that entire section, so it's likely that would be in the cards.
My proposal was based around the idea that this could be retrofitted into the existing design. It would be very hard to widen the sidewalks in that context because the storm drains would be covered by the sidewalk extension.
Ahh, good point! I didn't think of the storm drains.
Some parts of the road surface are in pretty rough shape (Arrow 2 construction did no favours in that regard). When is the region planning to do the rebuild?
RE: Road design, safety and Vision Zero - danbrotherston - 03-29-2021
(03-29-2021, 10:23 PM)tomh009 Wrote:(03-29-2021, 04:45 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I completely agree, and I think the region is planning on rebuilding that entire section, so it's likely that would be in the cards.
My proposal was based around the idea that this could be retrofitted into the existing design. It would be very hard to widen the sidewalks in that context because the storm drains would be covered by the sidewalk extension.
Ahh, good point! I didn't think of the storm drains.
Some parts of the road surface are in pretty rough shape (Arrow 2 construction did no favours in that regard). When is the region planning to do the rebuild?
It's been delayed, I think it was 2022-2023 now it's like 2024.