Waterloo Region Connected
ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version

+- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com)
+-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25)
+--- Thread: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=14)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790 791 792 793 794 795 796 797 798 799 800 801 802 803 804 805 806 807 808 809 810 811 812 813 814 815 816 817 818 819 820 821 822 823 824 825 826 827 828 829 830 831 832 833 834 835 836 837 838 839 840 841 842 843 844 845 846 847 848 849 850 851 852 853 854 855 856 857 858 859 860 861 862 863 864 865 866 867 868 869 870 871 872 873 874 875 876 877 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 885 886 887 888 889 890 891 892 893 894 895 896 897 898 899 900 901 902 903 904 905 906 907 908 909 910 911 912 913 914 915 916 917 918 919 920 921 922 923 924 925 926 927 928 929 930 931 932 933 934 935 936 937 938 939 940 941 942 943 944 945 946 947 948 949 950 951 952 953 954 955 956 957 958 959 960 961 962 963 964 965 966 967 968 969 970 971 972 973 974 975 976 977 978 979 980 981 982 983 984 985 986 987 988 989 990 991 992 993 994 995 996 997 998 999 1000 1001 1002 1003 1004 1005 1006 1007 1008 1009 1010 1011 1012 1013 1014 1015 1016 1017 1018 1019 1020 1021 1022 1023 1024 1025 1026 1027 1028 1029 1030 1031 1032 1033 1034 1035 1036 1037 1038 1039 1040 1041 1042 1043 1044 1045 1046 1047 1048 1049 1050 1051 1052 1053 1054 1055 1056 1057 1058 1059 1060 1061 1062 1063 1064 1065 1066 1067 1068 1069 1070 1071 1072 1073 1074 1075 1076 1077 1078 1079 1080 1081 1082 1083 1084 1085 1086 1087 1088 1089 1090 1091 1092 1093 1094 1095 1096 1097 1098 1099 1100 1101 1102 1103 1104 1105 1106 1107 1108 1109 1110 1111 1112 1113 1114 1115 1116 1117 1118 1119 1120 1121 1122 1123 1124 1125 1126 1127 1128 1129 1130 1131 1132 1133 1134 1135 1136 1137 1138 1139 1140 1141 1142 1143 1144 1145 1146 1147 1148 1149 1150 1151 1152 1153 1154 1155 1156 1157 1158 1159 1160 1161 1162 1163 1164 1165 1166 1167 1168 1169 1170 1171 1172 1173 1174 1175 1176 1177 1178 1179


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - panamaniac - 04-30-2025

How!!?? Don't the train and the traffic have separate signals at that intersection?


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Acitta - 04-30-2025

(04-30-2025, 06:49 PM)panamaniac Wrote: How!!?? Don't the train and the traffic have separate signals at that intersection?

Drivers think that obeying signals is optional.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Square - 05-01-2025

(04-30-2025, 06:37 PM)Acitta Wrote: Today's crash. Photo from r/kitchener. 

[Image: im-begging-yall-to-learn-how-to-drive-v0...20708ccf31]

One media story said this crash was at King and Pine. Ha ha, I don't think so. Was 2 crashes, this one and the King/Pine crash.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - KevinL - 05-01-2025

Wow, I came through there just a couple hours before! Wild.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 05-05-2025

Since this desiccated mummified horse corpse continues to get beaten here. Jason Slaughter made a video about how Trams (LRT) is the best urban transit mode for cities. I tend to agree with some caveats. https://youtu.be/bNTg9EX7MLw?si=62RoDzjdBejMnsMw


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - westwardloo - 05-05-2025

(05-05-2025, 11:29 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Since this desiccated mummified horse corpse continues to get beaten here. Jason Slaughter made a video about how Trams (LRT) is the best urban transit mode for cities. I tend to agree with some caveats. https://youtu.be/bNTg9EX7MLw?si=62RoDzjdBejMnsMw

Haha we do seem to bring it up quite a lot. Its already built, we aren't getting a skytrain or underground system now. 

I do think the LRT was the right choice for KW, although in hindsight I think the implementation was a bit of an issue. The Region rightfully so cheaped out whenever possible, but having the mandate that no roads be shutdown or turned into one-way for the LRT was a big miss in my opinion. The system would have been more efficient and quicker if they had implemented the following design changes:

  1. Caroline st s should have been a one way with the LRT running both ways down it.
  2. King st in DTK should have been turned into a pedestrian/ LRT only road.
  3. Obviously the hayward/ courtland ave S turn is a mess, it should have stayed on the rail right of way, then crossed king at Balzer.
  4. The loop back from northfield to Conestoga mall slows everything down and make extending it to Rim park area impossible, they should have built a dedicated bridge over the highway beside the hydro lines then used something like Conestogo rd/ Bauer place to get to king st. 
  5. Not sure how they could have made the borden/ ottawa split any better, maybe if they had continued on the rail right of way to kent or stirling ave they could have had by-direction. Or even continueing on the rail right of way until mill st then using Benton to get to DTK.
  6. They should have/ still need to figure out the mess of lights on King by the hospital. I think they need to remove at least 1 of those lights. The most obvious one is the entrance to midtown hospital, Just make the entrance to the hospital off Green St.  If they could get rid of the one entering Central fresh market all the better. That seems to be the main area for accidents. Even the traffic at Agnes could be removed no need for that street to make a left on king, just divert traffic to Wellington/ Green st. 


There are lots of reasons some of these things we not implemented, mostly financial, but others had to do with the difficulty to negotiate with third parties. I for one am happy we have something over nothing. Imagine how watered down the system would have been if they went for BRT.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 05-05-2025

(05-05-2025, 02:07 PM)westwardloo Wrote:
(05-05-2025, 11:29 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Since this desiccated mummified horse corpse continues to get beaten here. Jason Slaughter made a video about how Trams (LRT) is the best urban transit mode for cities. I tend to agree with some caveats. https://youtu.be/bNTg9EX7MLw?si=62RoDzjdBejMnsMw

Haha we do seem to bring it up quite a lot. Its already built, we aren't getting a skytrain or underground system now. 

I do think the LRT was the right choice for KW, although in hindsight I think the implementation was a bit of an issue. The Region rightfully so cheaped out whenever possible, but having the mandate that no roads be shutdown or turned into one-way for the LRT was a big miss in my opinion. The system would have been more efficient and quicker if they had implemented the following design changes:

  1. Caroline st s should have been a one way with the LRT running both ways down it.
  2. King st in DTK should have been turned into a pedestrian/ LRT only road.
  3. Obviously the hayward/ courtland ave S turn is a mess, it should have stayed on the rail right of way, then crossed king at Balzer.
  4. The loop back from northfield to Conestoga mall slows everything down and make extending it to Rim park area impossible, they should have built a dedicated bridge over the highway beside the hydro lines then used something like Conestogo rd/ Bauer place to get to king st. 
  5. Not sure how they could have made the borden/ ottawa split any better, maybe if they had continued on the rail right of way to kent or stirling ave they could have had by-direction. Or even continueing on the rail right of way until mill st then using Benton to get to DTK.
  6. They should have/ still need to figure out the mess of lights on King by the hospital. I think they need to remove at least 1 of those lights. The most obvious one is the entrance to midtown hospital, Just make the entrance to the hospital off Green St.  If they could get rid of the one entering Central fresh market all the better. That seems to be the main area for accidents. Even the traffic at Agnes could be removed no need for that street to make a left on king, just divert traffic to Wellington/ Green st. 


There are lots of reasons some of these things we not implemented, mostly financial, but others had to do with the difficulty to negotiate with third parties. I for one am happy we have something over nothing. Imagine how watered down the system would have been if they went for BRT.

Indeed. It’s one of the things I was so frustrated by when I was in KW. I wanted to see better things get built, and building better things is how you get more stuff built because building mediocre stuff leads to mediocre outcomes that don’t generate as much future support. On the other hand, we have to beg for a decade to get the mediocre stuff we get just by the skin of our teeth and sometimes not even that. 

*shrug* I do think the LRT was better than mediocre but there is a ton of room for improvement. Sadly it’s not looking like we are going to continue it anyway.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Momo26 - 05-10-2025

https://www.ctvnews.ca/kitchener/article/region-of-waterloo-considering-alternative-to-lrt-in-cambridge/

“A staff person talked about option 5 or plan 5 which would be scrapping the LRT and just going with the bus rapid transit into Cambridge,” Liggett told CTV News.

She admitted it was the first time regional councillors heard about it.

“I know that’s earth-shattering news, but that was an open session of regional council today,” she said during the Cambridge meeting.

The expansion of LRT into Cambridge carries a hefty price tag of about $4.5 billion. Liggett said it might not be realistic in today’s economy.


》》 thoughts?


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 05-10-2025

(05-10-2025, 09:04 AM)Momo26 Wrote: https://www.ctvnews.ca/kitchener/article/region-of-waterloo-considering-alternative-to-lrt-in-cambridge/

“A staff person talked about option 5 or plan 5 which would be scrapping the LRT and just going with the bus rapid transit into Cambridge,” Liggett told CTV News.

She admitted it was the first time regional councillors heard about it.

“I know that’s earth-shattering news, but that was an open session of regional council today,” she said during the Cambridge meeting.

The expansion of LRT into Cambridge carries a hefty price tag of about $4.5 billion. Liggett said it might not be realistic in today’s economy.


》》 thoughts?

4.5 billion isn't realistic in any economy.

But given that the wording doesn't even allow the idea of questioning why the price is so absurd, I expect that the opposition will get their way, and use the price inflation to kill the project.

And that group of people almost certainly has a lot of overlap with the people who will use this as yet another grievance Cambridge will hold over Kitchener, and as a reason to oppose any other work on the LRT (thus holding back the whole region).

Yeah, I'm a negative nelly today.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ac3r - 05-11-2025

Plan 5 of not spending 5 billion for that sounds like the best idea they've ever had regarding the LRT system. Let's go with that one.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Momo26 - 09-05-2025

There is some region of waterloo form where one can fill out to provide feedback about the public transit in the Region. I'd have to go and find it now, but I did fill that out and I discussed how focus should be on creating nodes or what I called tentacles to connect various parts of kitchener and waterloo to the existing LRT. My goal was to impart doing this first as I had to take no less than 2 buses to connect to the LRT which is absurd and no one should have to take more than a single connection to get from one part to another part of the same city.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - cherrypark - 09-05-2025

(05-10-2025, 10:53 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-10-2025, 09:04 AM)Momo26 Wrote: https://www.ctvnews.ca/kitchener/article/region-of-waterloo-considering-alternative-to-lrt-in-cambridge/

“A staff person talked about option 5 or plan 5 which would be scrapping the LRT and just going with the bus rapid transit into Cambridge,” Liggett told CTV News.

She admitted it was the first time regional councillors heard about it.

“I know that’s earth-shattering news, but that was an open session of regional council today,” she said during the Cambridge meeting.

The expansion of LRT into Cambridge carries a hefty price tag of about $4.5 billion. Liggett said it might not be realistic in today’s economy.


》》 thoughts?

4.5 billion isn't realistic in any economy.

But given that the wording doesn't even allow the idea of questioning why the price is so absurd, I expect that the opposition will get their way, and use the price inflation to kill the project.

And that group of people almost certainly has a lot of overlap with the people who will use this as yet another grievance Cambridge will hold over Kitchener, and as a reason to oppose any other work on the LRT (thus holding back the whole region).

Yeah, I'm a negative nelly today.

At this point just do the BRT for less, hope that GO to Cambridge gets approved, and live to fight for whatever Phase 3 would have been within KW. Even if that budget inflation seems out of hand, I'm not convinced the Regional council would have the fortitude to go for another phase for decades if it got anywhere near that with inevitable overages and issues on a complex alignment.

Also not fully convinced that mix isn't the best value for money option anyways. The alignment to Cambridge was so tortured by NIMBY wins that it feels like repeating a bunch of the half measures of Phase 1 but with an enormous cost of crossing two rivers on top of it.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ZEBuilder - 09-05-2025

Before everyone goes nuts that 4.5 billion is in 2033 dollars. If you look at cost in terms of 2025 dollars its only 3.1 billion which is insane yes but you need to look at other projects in Ontario to realize its one of the most sane cost estimates.

Phase 1 ION:
2011 cost was 818 million
2025 cost with inflation (and the 50 million overrun) is 1.2 billion
Cost per km: 63 million

Phase 2 ION:
2025 cost estimate 3.1 billion
Cost per km: 177 million

Phase 1+2:
2025 cost: 4.3 billion
Cost per km: 118 million

Hamilton LRT (no operating costs):
2021 cost estimate was 3.4 billion
2025 cost estimate with inflation is 4 billion
Cost per km (14km): 285 million

Hurontario LRT (current project not including operations):
2019 cost was 4.6 billion
2025 cost with inflation is 5.5 billion
Cost per km (18km): 306 million

Finch LRT (no operations in the contract):
2018 cost was 2.5 billion
2025 cost with inflation is 3.1 billion
Cost per km (11km): 282 billion

So yeah the cost is high but we're getting way more bang for our buck. If we were costing similar to Finch or Hamilton per km our phase 2 cost would have to be approaching 9 billion dollars. So sure its a high cost but its relatively reasonable all things considered.


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 09-05-2025

For a European comparison point I will give you Tampere, Finland. Phase 1/2 was fairly similar in many ways to our LRT. 10.2 km cost about 390M EUR plus 80M for 20 cars of rolling stock; this completed maybe two years ago, soon after the LRT. If I use a rough 1.5 exchange rate and guess at a few years of inflation adjustment that's maybe $750M or about $75M per km, not far off our phase 1 costs. (Our phase 2 is more complex and expensive to build than phase 1, whether 3x per km or not.)


RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ac3r - 09-06-2025

The best idea is to just scrap the past idealistic ION light rail idea the region had when it began. The world has drastically changed since then and there is no longer the need for the same project idea they had in 2010-2015 to be built today. It is obviously going to be a waste of money which we don't even have in the first place. The ION ultimately sucked, I think everyone can agree with that these days. Nobody cares about whether it was the best "bang for the buck" because it's just objectively bad. You're wrong if you disagree.

What needs to happen to deal with Cambridge is for the region to look at the transit from a fresh perspective. Them contemplating whether or not it makes any sense to build is a start. In fact, in my experience the fact they brought that up is them saying it's never going to happen anytime soon. It makes no sense to spend billions of dollars to run an LRT to a small suburban city of not even 140'000 people in which the majority of its population are not in favour of rapid urbanization of their community. That's fine and you can't force that. Fill the need by improving BRT because obviously the 302 route is obviously something people demand. Buses are thankfully really flexible.

Put money into BRT and put money into improving the existing LRT with things like faster frequency/headways, finally coupling the damn trains together and exploring ideas for future extensions - and an inevitable route to Cambridge. Things that will actually benefit people. Nobody is benefitting from burning 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 billion dollars on a project that'll take 15 years to finish and go way over budget, only for people to end up being extremely disappointed in the same way regional residents were disappointed in the existing LRT after all is said and done.

There are much better ways to improve transit between Cambridge and the rest of the region which don't include forcing a multi-billion dollar bill upon people.