ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version +- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com) +-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14) +--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25) +--- Thread: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=14) Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
524
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
540
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
634
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645
646
647
648
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
680
681
682
683
684
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
694
695
696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
704
705
706
707
708
709
710
711
712
713
714
715
716
717
718
719
720
721
722
723
724
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
732
733
734
735
736
737
738
739
740
741
742
743
744
745
746
747
748
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
761
762
763
764
765
766
767
768
769
770
771
772
773
774
775
776
777
778
779
780
781
782
783
784
785
786
787
788
789
790
791
792
793
794
795
796
797
798
799
800
801
802
803
804
805
806
807
808
809
810
811
812
813
814
815
816
817
818
819
820
821
822
823
824
825
826
827
828
829
830
831
832
833
834
835
836
837
838
839
840
841
842
843
844
845
846
847
848
849
850
851
852
853
854
855
856
857
858
859
860
861
862
863
864
865
866
867
868
869
870
871
872
873
874
875
876
877
878
879
880
881
882
883
884
885
886
887
888
889
890
891
892
893
894
895
896
897
898
899
900
901
902
903
904
905
906
907
908
909
910
911
912
913
914
915
916
917
918
919
920
921
922
923
924
925
926
927
928
929
930
931
932
933
934
935
936
937
938
939
940
941
942
943
944
945
946
947
948
949
950
951
952
953
954
955
956
957
958
959
960
961
962
963
964
965
966
967
968
969
970
971
972
973
974
975
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
983
984
985
986
987
988
989
990
991
992
993
994
995
996
997
998
999
1000
1001
1002
1003
1004
1005
1006
1007
1008
1009
1010
1011
1012
1013
1014
1015
1016
1017
1018
1019
1020
1021
1022
1023
1024
1025
1026
1027
1028
1029
1030
1031
1032
1033
1034
1035
1036
1037
1038
1039
1040
1041
1042
1043
1044
1045
1046
1047
1048
1049
1050
1051
1052
1053
1054
1055
1056
1057
1058
1059
1060
1061
1062
1063
1064
1065
1066
1067
1068
1069
1070
1071
1072
1073
1074
1075
1076
1077
1078
1079
1080
1081
1082
1083
1084
1085
1086
1087
1088
1089
1090
1091
1092
1093
1094
1095
1096
1097
1098
1099
1100
1101
1102
1103
1104
1105
1106
1107
1108
1109
1110
1111
1112
1113
1114
1115
1116
1117
1118
1119
1120
1121
1122
1123
1124
1125
1126
1127
1128
1129
1130
1131
1132
1133
1134
1135
1136
1137
1138
1139
1140
1141
1142
1143
1144
1145
1146
1147
1148
1149
1150
1151
1152
1153
1154
1155
1156
1157
1158
1159
1160
1161
1162
1163
1164
1165
1166
|
RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 11-09-2023 This is way too cynical, and implicitly suggests that we could have a society with no police. Spoiler alert: you cannot have a modern urban society without police. What you can have is a society with police that are more accountable and whose activities promote a better society for everybody. For example, we’re always talking about how bad drivers are. Now obviously we could have better attitudes so that drivers in general are better, but there will always be somebody who thinks it’s A-OK to get somewhere faster by driving crazily through downtown. There needs to be a group of people whose job it is to deal with those people. Whatever you call that group of people, what they are is the police. I have watched more videos than I should have of police interactions. They vary, and in some of them I definitely have criticisms of the police response, but in others, they show tremendous patience with extremely poor behaviour from those with whom they are interacting. In the videos I am thinking of, they are clearly putting in a lot of effort to behave in an appropriate manner. To paint all of the police as enemies is inaccurate, and perhaps more importantly, unhelpful. I find myself asking: what should the police do to regain trust? The way some people talk, I can’t imagine what they could do that would even begin to make those people happy. So what incentive do they have even to try? RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - KevinL - 11-09-2023 The police as currently conceived and operating perform a number of functions vital to society. Whether that organization is best suited to many or even all of those is facing more debate now than I can ever recall; I think in many cases they are indeed ill-suited. As well, the type of person the institution attracts and the way they are trained is becoming increasingly incompatible with what we want to see them do, and I feel some form of renewal there would be of great benefit. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - neonjoe - 11-09-2023 I think in the case of the TTC it was Cst Power Trip protecting the rights of motorists from the scourge of public transit. Are trams even covered by the HTA? RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - dtkvictim - 11-09-2023 (11-09-2023, 09:26 PM)neonjoe Wrote: I think in the case of the TTC it was Cst Power Trip protecting the rights of motorists from the scourge of public transit. Are trams even covered by the HTA? Protecting the rights of motorists to block the intersection instead. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - bravado - 11-09-2023 (11-09-2023, 09:26 PM)neonjoe Wrote: I think in the case of the TTC it was Cst Power Trip protecting the rights of motorists from the scourge of public transit. Are trams even covered by the HTA? To steal a good one from twitter: "Another banner day for the Occupying Army of Suburbia" RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 11-10-2023 (11-09-2023, 11:20 PM)bravado Wrote:(11-09-2023, 09:26 PM)neonjoe Wrote: I think in the case of the TTC it was Cst Power Trip protecting the rights of motorists from the scourge of public transit. Are trams even covered by the HTA? That is a very apt comment. IIRC from my last read of the HTA, trams are mentioned in the HTA, but they explicitly do not qualify as a motor vehicle, so probably have some rules, but distinct rules. The law doesn't actually really matter, the cop was on a power trip... Blocking an intersection is something cops routinely instruct drivers to do, it wasn't about the law, it was about this cop being angry at a public transit operator, and using his badge as a tool to express his anger. And like, I know nothing about the situation or this individual, but given what I do know about Toronto traffic and TPS I'm pretty happy to assume that is true with a high confidence. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 11-10-2023 (11-09-2023, 07:31 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: This is way too cynical, and implicitly suggests that we could have a society with no police. There are three or four distinct activities the police do in in modern society. 1. Investigating crimes 2. Maintaining order (In crowds or by mediating disputes between individuals) 3. First response to injury/mental health problems 4. Traffic enforcement (maybe). Combining these four is a very bad idea. People also have a wildly inaccurate idea of the actual activities involved in those items, and how often police do them. For example, police spend most of their time doing 3, for which they are most ill suited for. People also believe that 1 involves lots of CSI shit, and occasionally it does, for the handful of murders each year. But when their stereo is stolen, they pretty much just do paperwork, it's more of a statistical job. 2 is the thing that police do second most often and something they are also unsuited for. People also believe that police prevent crime, which is quite clearly not one of the four tasks on the list. I never said all police are enemies, but policing as a whole is harmful in its current form. It harms our freedom, because police are poorly trained in law and often infringe on our rights. It harms individuals because some cops are poorly trained or poorly emotionally suited to de-escalating and thus often fail at 2. And it harms society in general because they use the excuse of the danger involved with 2 and to justify siphoning off most of the available tax dollars in society for their own use. Breaking these items into different roles in society would lead to a far far better division of powers and of training. But that would require bold and significant changes to our society which police strongly oppose (and they wield significant power to do so). As for regaining the trust of society, it is absolutely mandatory that police do so. The ONLY practical difference between the police and a criminal gang of thugs, is that one is trusted by society at large. If police lose this trust, that's what they become. So they should want to gain that trust, because if they don't, it changes the nature of what they are pretty significantly. But, it is also possible to do so. Yes, some people are extreme and will never trust police, but most people are on the margins, they can go either way, and every time they hear about a corrupt officer getting protected by the police, every time they see a "blue line" flag. Every time the police act as though the public is the enemy a few people are pushed over that margin into the other side. The same people (or different people anyway) will be pushed back if those situations play out differently, if the department removes corrupt cops, if the department prevents officers from wearing a flag which implies a line between the public and police. Etc. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - dtkvictim - 11-10-2023 This discussion probably aught to be moved to the WRPS thread. (11-10-2023, 02:30 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I never said all police are enemies, but policing as a whole is harmful in its current form. It harms our freedom, because police are poorly trained in law and often infringe on our rights. It harms individuals because some cops are poorly trained or poorly emotionally suited to de-escalating and thus often fail at 2. And it harms society in general because they use the excuse of the danger involved with 2 and to justify siphoning off most of the available tax dollars in society for their own use. Ignoring the rest of the post, I think you may want to clarify here: When you say policing is harmful in its current form, do you mean to say you believe it's a net negative? As in, if the police vanished tomorrow society would be better off for it? That the manner and degree that they infringe on our freedoms is worse than the effect that bad actors have on our freedom? That the public financial burden of police is worse than the economic impact and personal financial burden of not having police? Or do you believe that it's a net positive, but that the underlying pluses and minuses don't add up as ideally as you would like? Possibly trending towards net negative, but not there yet? I think those are two very different positions to hold, and probably drastically changes how or if someone wants to respond. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 11-10-2023 (11-10-2023, 03:11 AM)dtkvictim Wrote: This discussion probably aught to be moved to the WRPS thread. I don't think the "net value" makes sense in the context you are discussing. If tomorrow all police forces in Canada were disbanded with no replacement that would obviously be worse than the current situation. But that doesn't mean that the police are a net positive. It simply means that the disruption caused by such a sudden and significant change to society would be substantial. Even leaving aside the question of policing that would leave hundreds of thousands of people suddenly unemployed which alone would be a huge social problem. The other problem with "net positive" is that it implies a world where police don't exist. But that isn't the alternative to policing. If police didn't exist, what would exist instead. Even fiscally, what would we do with that ~100 million dollars a year. Surely we are not simply burning it. What are we funding with it instead? Is it returned to the taxpayer, does it fund alternative agencies which do more good. This is why the "net negative" question is almost impossible to answer in our complex world. I can construct a fantasy universe where that money is spent on academic pursuits and unlimited power and matter conversion is invented and now we live in a post scarcity world...obviously in that fantasy world, police are a net negative. But it's just a fantasy, but it's no more fantastical than a world where we take ~100 million dollars per year of tax money and put it in a big furnace and burn it without doing anything with it. So obviously that money must do something else. But lets ignore all that, and consider hypothetical worlds that are at least reasonably logical and not fantastical: 1. Our world. 2. An ideal world with police funding largely transferred to non-police agencies handling mental health and road enforcement; and with the remaining (much smaller) policing budget split between frontline officers handling crowd control and dispute de-escalation, and investigative/office staff taking crime reports. 3. A world that eliminates one or both of the remaining police duties (crowd control officers, and investigative staff) and returns that money to taxpayers (but remember, this is far far less than the amount currently spent, because we are still funding non-policing agencies from 2). I think 2 would clearly be better than today. It's also possible that variations of 3 could still be better than today, but that to me is less clear--but not impossible. That being said while all 3 options are consistent and non-fantastical hypothetical universes, I really only find 2 plausible at all...I don't believe 3 would ever exist, nor do I actually think anyone is asking for it, so I think asking about is is kind of moot anyway. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - kps - 11-10-2023 (11-10-2023, 02:14 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: IIRC from my last read of the HTA, trams are mentioned in the HTA, but they explicitly do not qualify as a motor vehicle, so probably have some rules, but distinct rules. It's all online. In general, “‘motor vehicle’ […] does not include a street car”, but many sections refer to “motor vehicle or street car” or “motor vehicle, street car, road-building machine, self-propelled implement of husbandry or farm tractor” (covering most of the other powered default exclusions). In this case, it's up to the city: Quote:145 (1) The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (1). RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bob_McBob - 11-10-2023 Riders question LRT reliability after freezing rain disrupts service – again RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 11-10-2023 This is getting ridiculous! But this is also getting more common. When I was a kid freezing rain was something that happened every couple of years...now it's something that happens many times a year. And this was the exact finding of the study the city commissioned on the effects of climate change on the region. The fact the train cannot deal with freezing rain is existential. At some point we are going to be choosing between keeping ineffectual bureaucrats and incompetent contractors or having a train service. When freezing rain is a weekly occurrence, if the train cannot operate during it, then there is no train. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - nms - 11-18-2023 The Ion has now been in operation for over 1000 revenue days; it has been sidelined for parts of "at least" three days according to that CTV report. Overall, a pretty good operating track record. That being said, we know that the LRVs can be fitted with ice scrapers when bad weather is expected. What I don't know is, in cases where the ice isn't present, does the scraper add any kind of wear to the catenary itself? How do tram lines in places like Finland manage? Or is the case there that weather is generally drier (eg mainly snow and not freezing rain) and therefore a different operating condition? If freezing rain, as opposed to snow, is the problem, then someone may have to dig into the operating agreement to figure out who pays for increased operating costs due to climate change. My bet is that it would be the Region that pays. In October and November, many motorists put on snow tires for winter driving and leave them on until March. If we only put them on ahead of each storm, it would slow us down too. But, the winter tires would be in much better shape because they were only used for a handful of days. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 11-18-2023 Freezing rain is plenty common in Finland. And yet they manage trams (Helsinki), LRT (Tampere) and nationwide electric train service. I would really like to see an answer from the region to the scraper question. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 11-19-2023 (11-18-2023, 09:39 AM)nms Wrote: The Ion has now been in operation for over 1000 revenue days; it has been sidelined for parts of "at least" three days according to that CTV report. Overall, a pretty good operating track record. More than that. It was three days this past (2022/23) winter alone. There has been at least a half day of lost service every winter since service started. (11-18-2023, 09:39 AM)nms Wrote: That being said, we know that the LRVs can be fitted with ice scrapers when bad weather is expected. What I don't know is, in cases where the ice isn't present, does the scraper add any kind of wear to the catenary itself? How do tram lines in places like Finland manage? Or is the case there that weather is generally drier (eg mainly snow and not freezing rain) and therefore a different operating condition? The problem is definitely freezing rain and not snow. he problem is that the ice buildup on the catenary wires can only get a millimetre or so thick before the regular pantograph shoes. The special scraper shoes can handle much more but they add extra wear on the catenary wires. Snow just rests on op of the catenary wire and does not block contact by the shoe. In Finland and elsewhere when deicing solution is not enough ot not practical, they just put the special shoes on when the freezing rain is coming and leave them on until it is no longer in the forecast and just budget appropriately for a faster catenary wire replacement schedule. (11-18-2023, 09:39 AM)nms Wrote: If freezing rain, as opposed to snow, is the problem, then someone may have to dig into the operating agreement to figure out who pays for increased operating costs due to climate change. My bet is that it would be the Region that pays. The contract requires the trams to keep running up to an hourly accumulation rate of 12.7mm per hour or 25.4mm over every 2 hours. That an inch thick that GrandLinq/Keolis is required to have a solution that works, whether de-icing fluid or scraper shoes. So climate change, per se, is not really in the picture as a worry, as nothing is said about the frequency of freezing rain events, just the accumulation rates of the ice during them. (11-18-2023, 09:39 AM)nms Wrote: In October and November, many motorists put on snow tires for winter driving and leave them on until March. If we only put them on ahead of each storm, it would slow us down too. But, the winter tires would be in much better shape because they were only used for a handful of days. There's no reason whey they can't look at the weather reports and put the scraper shoes on at 4am before that trams go out for the day's service. |