ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version +- Waterloo Region Connected (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com) +-- Forum: Waterloo Region Works (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=14) +--- Forum: Transportation and Infrastructure (https://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=25) +--- Thread: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit (/showthread.php?tid=14) Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
524
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
540
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
634
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645
646
647
648
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
680
681
682
683
684
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
694
695
696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
704
705
706
707
708
709
710
711
712
713
714
715
716
717
718
719
720
721
722
723
724
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
732
733
734
735
736
737
738
739
740
741
742
743
744
745
746
747
748
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
761
762
763
764
765
766
767
768
769
770
771
772
773
774
775
776
777
778
779
780
781
782
783
784
785
786
787
788
789
790
791
792
793
794
795
796
797
798
799
800
801
802
803
804
805
806
807
808
809
810
811
812
813
814
815
816
817
818
819
820
821
822
823
824
825
826
827
828
829
830
831
832
833
834
835
836
837
838
839
840
841
842
843
844
845
846
847
848
849
850
851
852
853
854
855
856
857
858
859
860
861
862
863
864
865
866
867
868
869
870
871
872
873
874
875
876
877
878
879
880
881
882
883
884
885
886
887
888
889
890
891
892
893
894
895
896
897
898
899
900
901
902
903
904
905
906
907
908
909
910
911
912
913
914
915
916
917
918
919
920
921
922
923
924
925
926
927
928
929
930
931
932
933
934
935
936
937
938
939
940
941
942
943
944
945
946
947
948
949
950
951
952
953
954
955
956
957
958
959
960
961
962
963
964
965
966
967
968
969
970
971
972
973
974
975
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
983
984
985
986
987
988
989
990
991
992
993
994
995
996
997
998
999
1000
1001
1002
1003
1004
1005
1006
1007
1008
1009
1010
1011
1012
1013
1014
1015
1016
1017
1018
1019
1020
1021
1022
1023
1024
1025
1026
1027
1028
1029
1030
1031
1032
1033
1034
1035
1036
1037
1038
1039
1040
1041
1042
1043
1044
1045
1046
1047
1048
1049
1050
1051
1052
1053
1054
1055
1056
1057
1058
1059
1060
1061
1062
1063
1064
1065
1066
1067
1068
1069
1070
1071
1072
1073
1074
1075
1076
1077
1078
1079
1080
1081
1082
1083
1084
1085
1086
1087
1088
1089
1090
1091
1092
1093
1094
1095
1096
1097
1098
1099
1100
1101
1102
1103
1104
1105
1106
1107
1108
1109
1110
1111
1112
1113
1114
1115
1116
1117
1118
1119
1120
1121
1122
1123
1124
1125
1126
1127
1128
1129
1130
1131
1132
1133
1134
1135
1136
1137
1138
1139
1140
1141
1142
1143
1144
1145
1146
1147
1148
1149
1150
1151
1152
1153
1154
1155
1156
1157
1158
1159
1160
1161
1162
1163
1164
1165
1166
|
RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - plam - 11-19-2020 (11-19-2020, 01:10 PM)ac3r Wrote: Oops, didn't realize I had linked the French version! Mais...nous l'apprenons tous passionnément pendant de nombreuses années à l'école, no? :') Certains d'entre nous sont québeçois d'origine. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - KevinL - 11-19-2020 (11-19-2020, 03:34 PM)jeffster Wrote: I didn't realize the Keolis was a French company. Now I know. They're a 'French company' in the deepest sense... owned by France's national railway, SNCF. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Coke6pk - 11-24-2020 The Press Release Wrote:With Cambridge stops to be added within a few years. Well that's good news! Much faster than I was expecting! Coke RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ac3r - 11-24-2020 Well stage 2 hasn't yet been confirmed I believe, but I sincerely doubt Cambridge will vote against it. It's the only thing that could save that place. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - catarctica - 11-24-2020 I heard it wouldn’t be coming till 2025 or 2028? I low key already want a new line going thru king/Columbia and st jacobs farmers market (this one is more like a wishful hope). RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 11-25-2020 (11-24-2020, 10:30 PM)catarctica Wrote: I heard it wouldn’t be coming till 2025 or 2028? I low key already want a new line going thru king/Columbia and st jacobs farmers market (this one is more like a wishful hope). I know the OG plan was to have it run to St. Jacobs Farmers Market, and I believe, to the Galt Terminal. The 2nd Line was suppose to be along Victoria from roughly IRA and Bingemans (Lackner). RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 11-27-2020 (11-25-2020, 03:43 AM)jeffster Wrote: I know the OG plan was to have it run to St. Jacobs Farmers Market, and I believe, to the Galt Terminal. Not quite. That was only the potential maximum. The studies looked along the Region's entire Central Transit Corridor to see where it was likely to be needed, based on job & resident density, public transit use, and what residents thought of the route. The route from St. Jacobs to Ainslie was still in the 2011 documents as option L9, but if you go through everything you can see that how after 2007 most of the effort was focused on what in 2011 was called option L3 and which is what we got. But until 2011 there was no plan to have it run anywhere as it was still all hypothetical before then. (11-25-2020, 03:43 AM)jeffster Wrote: The 2nd Line was suppose to be along Victoria from roughly IRA and Bingemans (Lackner). In the original planning process that went on from 2004 to 2014, Victoria St. was never considered as area under consideration was only the CTC. Are you thinking of the "Moving Forward: 2018 Master Transportation Plan" documents that mention Erb/University/King and Highland/Victoria as hypothetical ION Stage 3 after 2041? RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 11-27-2020 (11-24-2020, 10:30 PM)catarctica Wrote: I heard it wouldn’t be coming till 2025 or 2028? I low key already want a new line going thru king/Columbia and st jacobs farmers market (this one is more like a wishful hope). When Stage one was finished, and we went through 2 years of "any day now" thanks to Bombardier, the quasi-official word from councillors and senior staff when asked was that the earliest Stage 2 would be started was 2025 based on ability to get funding from senior levels of government in a timely manner, and how fast ridership along the 302 would increase. 2028 is the new date given recently and seems to be merely a simple adjustment based on the Bombardier-induced delays in starting operations, and now CoViD-19 their effects on ridership. Left unstated, however, has been what those ridership targets are that would trigger the process to move into final route plans, start expropriations, order more trams, open up RFQ and then RFP, and then finally construction. (Assuming funding is there, of course.) Depending on local conditions, including like salaries for your staff, fuel/energy costs, etc…, LRTs become competitive with bus routes on an operational cost per ride somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 boardings per day, usually around 7,000, and outperform about 25-50% later. We left implementing our LRT until significantly later. As recently as 2018, the Region had been hinting that it would not wait as long in terms of the 302 getting crowded as it had for the iXpress 200 and 7, and that it might even be willing to do it slightly before it was fully viable in terms of that operating cost per ride. Those hints were always couched in terms of hurrying along densification being worth Stage 2 underperforming for a few years. Reading between the lines between of what local politicians said on the record or in just talking to people, a lot of people felt the Region was implying that it would do so in order to pacify Cambridge. After all, Cambriding having had to pay the extra property tax levies for Stage 1 while only being indirectly served by it is an undeniable political hot potato. Also, the usual 7% average annual growth for GRT ridership that is mentioned in Regional transportation documents wouldn't put what is now route 302 over 5,000/day until 2026 and over 10,000/d day until 2036, and that was seen by some as more evidence that Stage 2 would be built before it was viable in terms of that operational cost. (Numbers given to me by GRT for 2015-2018 showed an average of 10% annual growth, which would have brought the 302 to just under 6,500/day in 2025, do not know what recent, precoid numbers were.) Maybe it's just me being cynical, but I think we have at least 2 and probably 3 municipal elections to go before we see a council authorise an RFQ for Stage 2 construction, because even if they get funding I cannot see political appetites (i.e., getting reelected) before the 302 reached 7,000 to 10,000 riders a day on average, likely some time after 2030. I will be highly surprised if the Council authorises Stage 2 construction at 5,000/day or fewer. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ac3r - 11-27-2020 (11-27-2020, 01:24 PM)Bytor Wrote: after 2041? For the sake of everyone in WR, I hope we build a second line before 2041...it shouldn't take a region of over 600'000 roughly half a century to simply build two "rapid" transit lines. eyerollemoji Also, maybe this disaster that we call the ION could...you know...NOT use Bombardier for anything going forward? When is the last time you ever read anything about them that wasn't bad news? They're a terrible company. I think we only went with them because we or they or someone got some breaks if we bought Canadian, but that turned out to be a complete waste of time and money. Alstom may have had some wonky doors on the newest Otrain line, but at least they got trains in time - not 2-3 years later, incomplete with no APT and welding that was cracking after a few weeks. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - dtkvictim - 11-27-2020 (11-27-2020, 07:17 PM)ac3r Wrote: Also, maybe this disaster that we call the ION could...you know...NOT use Bombardier for anything going forward? When is the last time you ever read anything about them that wasn't bad news? They're a terrible company. I think we only went with them because we or they or someone got some breaks if we bought Canadian, but that turned out to be a complete waste of time and money. Alstom may have had some wonky doors on the newest Otrain line, but at least they got trains in time - not 2-3 years later, incomplete with no APT and welding that was cracking after a few weeks. Well, depending on what Alstom does with Bombardier, using Bombardier in the future may not even be a choice (at least nominally). But if you think "wonky doors" is the best way to describe the O-train saga then I don't think you've been following it. The wikipedia page for the LRVs sums it up fairly well (in terms of vehicle issues, which are only part of the system's issues): Quote:By early October 2019, the automated doors of the vehicles used by Ottawa's Confederation Line experienced faults if pried open or held back by passengers; this resulted in numerous service disruptions, some lasting up to 90 minutes due to a lack of proper procedures to isolate and disable the faulty doors while a train was in service. The vehicles also began encountering integration issues with Thales' SelTrac train control system that led to the on-board computer for some trains in service needing to be rebooted, causing delays of up to 20 to 30 minutes.[10] If I'm not mistaken, a big part of why we chose the vehicles we did was to piggy-back on Toronto's order. Perhaps ironically, Toronto has ordered some of the same vehicles as Ottawa now because they fear Bombardier won't fulfill their order in time. But anyways, from cursory reading of systems around the world, it seems like delays on new/custom vehicles is the norm, not the exception. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 11-27-2020 (11-27-2020, 07:50 PM)dtkvictim Wrote:Quote:By early October 2019, the automated doors of the vehicles used by Ottawa's Confederation Line experienced faults if pried open or held back by passengers; this resulted in numerous service disruptions, some lasting up to 90 minutes due to a lack of proper procedures to isolate and disable the faulty doors while a train was in service. The vehicles also began encountering integration issues with Thales' SelTrac train control system that led to the on-board computer for some trains in service needing to be rebooted, causing delays of up to 20 to 30 minutes.[10] I read an article which said that any train with a door that wouldn’t close would be locked out by the ATP (automatic train protection) and could only be moved under old-school procedures essentially involving written authorization to use sections of track. Total engineering fail; ATP has no business absolutely preventing a train from operating just because of door problems. There should be a procedure to inform the system that the door has failed, possibly install a temporary barrier, and continue on, even in service if appropriate. What horrors lurk in the design away from areas where I can confidently assert the designers screwed up? I hope this isn’t the way of the future: software industry practices applied to other industries. By this I mean products which, while technically meeting the spec, fail to operate in the way which anybody who actually thought about the problem for a few minutes would realize they should operate. The customer should not be responsible for thinking of all the obvious, goes-without-saying, features and putting them explicitly in the spec. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 11-27-2020 (11-27-2020, 07:50 PM)dtkvictim Wrote: If I'm not mistaken, a big part of why we chose the vehicles we did was to piggy-back on Toronto's order. Perhaps ironically, Toronto has ordered some of the same vehicles as Ottawa now because they fear Bombardier won't fulfill their order in time. Even more ironically, Metrolinx had a whole lot to do with the delays, as they turned uncooperative once they were fighting BBD in court. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 11-28-2020 (11-27-2020, 07:17 PM)ac3r Wrote: Also, maybe this disaster that we call the ION could...you know...NOT use Bombardier for anything going forward? "Disaster" is an unnecessarily hyperbolic mischaracterisation of ION. Yes, Bombardier being so late on delivery was very frustrating, but once we had the working trams Keolis had things up and running in short order, and they have been reliable ever since. The problems with the EasyGO fare card system were also frustrating, but I am of the opinion that at least some of the problems were with users not paying attention and using the system incorrectly. Presto has had far more problems on almost every one of their installs. The TTC for example, has been having problems with their implementation for more than 5 years. Frustrating? Sure. A disaster? Hardly. (11-27-2020, 07:17 PM)ac3r Wrote: When is the last time you ever read anything about them that wasn't bad news? They're a terrible company. I'm guessing that you don't follow rail news, like, at all? Alstom, Siemens, Kinki Sharyo, they've all had their problems at one time or another. Alstom's clusterfuck with the Citadis Spirit for Ottawa. Siemens was forbidden from bidding on contracts for the London Underground for more than a decade from the early 2000s because a previous delivery was just as bad as Ottawa's from Alstom. Prior to mid 2013 or so, well after Waterloo Region had decided to join the contract with Metrolinx, Bombardier Transportation was one of the top three largest rail manufacturers and had a highly respected reputation, 180° from Bombardier Air's. That had produced literally tens of thousands of locomotives and cars for the previous 40+ years, include more than 3,000 LRT trams. Unless you were expecting the Regional Council to have been psychic and able to tell the future, there were some very good reasons to go with Bombardier. (11-27-2020, 07:17 PM)ac3r Wrote: I think we only went with them because we or they or someone got some breaks if we bought Canadian, but that turned out to be a complete waste of time and money. One of those good reasons was cost. The only other manufacturers who reportedly showed any interest in supplying trams for the ION were Alstom, Siemens and Kinki Sharyo, and if you go and google their contracts for the five to ten years prior to 2012 that got mentioned in the news, you'll quickly see that we probably would have paid close to twice as much for trams from one of them, based on those other known contracts. Even with the extra $20-25M in other costs caused by Bombardier being so late, we are still cheaper than what those three would have been. (11-27-2020, 07:17 PM)ac3r Wrote: Alstom may have had some wonky doors on the newest Otrain line, but at least they got trains in time - not 2-3 years later, incomplete with no APT and welding that was cracking after a few weeks. If you think Ottawa only had a few problems with "wonky doors" then you weren't paying attention to what happened there. They also had problems with control system integration the required 20+ minute reboots, various problems with the electrical systems which caused the trams to stop working in inclement weather, and issues persisted into January of this year when on one day they were short 5 trams due to recurring mechanical and electrical issues. They are supposed to have 13 trams on during peak, and 8 the rest of the day. And a whole bunch more. Now contrast that to our trams. Bombardier may have been very late, but once we got all of them Keolis had the system up and running in short order and it has been reliable ever since. So twice the price and all those problems? No thank you! RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 11-28-2020 (11-27-2020, 07:17 PM)ac3r Wrote:(11-27-2020, 01:24 PM)Bytor Wrote: after 2041?For the sake of everyone in WR, I hope we build a second line before 2041...it shouldn't take a region of over 600'000 roughly half a century to simply build two "rapid" transit lines. eyerollemoji Not if there isn't the ridership to make it warranted. None of the remaining iXpress routes have riderships of more than 1,500 per day, pre-covid. Only the 201 was that high, the rest were at about 1,000/day. At 7% per year average annual growth that will take a minimum of ~18 years before the 201 reaches the lower end of the range where LRTs start to have a comparable operating cost per ride to a bus route, and ~23 years to the middle of the range. So we are, realistically, looking at 2038 to 2043 before Stage 3 would be warranted based purely on operational cost. None of the numbers that I have gotten over the years from the GRT has suggested that the other iXpress routes ever had growth rates above system average like the 200/302 has had. RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - tomh009 - 11-28-2020 Lots of unknowns in predicting the future: will more people work from home, how many people will live in the downtowns, will there be less parking available for cars, will more people walk or use bicycles, and more. Very hard to know. And, whatever the actual numbers, we should remember that the LRT was built not only to carry people but also to promote intensification along its route. Building a stage 3 should mean building it wherever we expect the next stage of intensification to be. And at the moment we still have a lot of capacity to intensify along the current stage 1 route, so that urgency is not there yet. 10+ years before we start going down this path, I expect, subject to change of course! |