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ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Printable Version

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RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 09-03-2019

Another option for the card reader (for refilling it) could have been to have it inserted into the payment machine, followed by the credit card, then refilled, and have the machine spit out both cards once the transaction is complete. I'm pretty sure this is how some garages work (I'm thinking GRH). Probably too expensive to change this now though, unless the hardware is compatible and the software can be updated.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 09-03-2019

(09-03-2019, 04:38 PM)Bytor Wrote:
(09-03-2019, 02:31 PM)avernar Wrote: Near Field Communication.  Near, not touching.  If you have to get closer than 4cm the power on reader is set too low.

User interfaces are like jokes.  If you have to explain it, it's not a good one.

So our two options are:

1) Get every single person who lives or visits here to mush their card against the reader.
2) Increase the power of the reader excitation coil.

Hmmmm.  Let's pick the easy one and do option 2.  Did that at a parking garage entrance once.  It would read the card 3-4 feet away.  You didn't even have to roll down your window.


Security implications, yikes! That 1-1.5m read you describe boosts the interception distance up to, what 10m instead of the 1m for a typical tap like for a card terminal in a store?

I'd pick the secure option of having users lay their fare card on the sensor, just like how 99% of people lay their car on the screen of a card terminal in a store.

The problem with this system is one simply can't lay their card flat on the NFC reader with one hand, while paying at the terminal with the other hand, while holding their goods with their third hand. Though you bring up a good idea, they could install a NFC above the debit/credit terminal to lay their card flat while purchasing funds.

I do worry that the current solution will just be vandalized. Guess we'll find out if it's a good solution or not soon enough.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 09-04-2019

(09-03-2019, 11:50 PM)jeffster Wrote: Another option for the card reader (for refilling it) could have been to have it inserted into the payment machine, followed by the credit card, then refilled, and have the machine spit out both cards once the transaction is complete.  I'm pretty sure this is how some garages work (I'm thinking GRH). Probably too expensive to change this now though, unless the hardware is compatible and the software can be updated.

I was thinking that a slot might be better for the vending machines. It’s weird and unfamiliar to have to present the card twice, whereas people are perfectly used to the idea of giving the machine their ATM card, then getting it back only when the machine decides it’s done with it. Even with RF reading, which doesn’t require a slot, it would guarantee proper placement of the card every time.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 09-04-2019

Ion didn't seem too busy yesterday at UW (I happened to pass through both at noon hour and later in the day), thankfully. I heard complaints from someone I know at KCI that several trains leaving Grand River Hospital were crush loaded. When I got off at GRH, there were a number of students waiting to get on, and that was well past 3:00 (KCI classes end at 2:30).

We really could use that little bit of extra frequency.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 09-04-2019

(09-04-2019, 07:44 AM)MidTowner Wrote: Ion didn't seem too busy yesterday at UW (I happened to pass through both at noon hour and later in the day), thankfully. I heard complaints from someone I know at KCI that several trains leaving Grand River Hospital were crush loaded. When I got off at GRH, there were a number of students waiting to get on, and that was well past 3:00 (KCI classes end at 2:30).

We really could use that little bit of extra frequency.

Indeed. And not just on trains, the IHT and Laurel trails are absolute madness right now.  The crossing of University Ave gets worse every year.  If that was a road, it would be the regions ONLY traffic congestion priority: LOS: F

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - Bytor - 09-04-2019

Editorial in the Record: Light rail system needs to meet its promise
https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/9578815-editorial-light-rail-system-needs-to-meet-its-promise/

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - avernar - 09-04-2019

(09-03-2019, 03:56 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: At some point, it becomes excessive, and is its own, worse, UI problem. I’d rather “sometimes I’m confused as to whether my card has been read” than “sometimes I’m confused why I’ve paid for the fares of half the passengers in the station”. For a parking garage entrance it might be OK, since all it’s doing is opening the door (I assume). For anything that is even remotely ATM like, in that it can cost the card’s owner money, it’s not OK. But if it’s the difference between “card pretty much needs to touch terminal” and “card just needs to be within 10cm of terminal”, your Option 2 is probably best.
Again, good UI design is needed.  A LOUD beep and very obvious screen indication plus a delay between taps.  I'm assuming here you tap more that once per person with you.

(09-03-2019, 04:38 PM)Bytor Wrote: Security implications, yikes! That 1-1.5m read you describe boosts the interception distance up to, what 10m instead of the 1m for a typical tap like for a card terminal in a store?

I'd pick the secure option of having users lay their fare card on the sensor, just like how 99% of people lay their car on the screen of a card terminal in a store.
I was just giving an example of what's possible.  There should be no problem getting them to accept cards 4cm away.  I've never lay my card down on an in store terminal (many are at an angle) in the odd time I can't use my phone.

Keep in mind that if most cards require touching distance then weak cards will not read at all.  Better to have most read at 4cm.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - avernar - 09-04-2019

(09-04-2019, 09:54 AM)Bytor Wrote: Editorial in the Record: Light rail system needs to meet its promise
https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/9578815-editorial-light-rail-system-needs-to-meet-its-promise/
The article mentions reliability issues.  Anyone know if this is true?  Last I read it was because the special equipment isn't online yet.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - danbrotherston - 09-04-2019

I truly do marvel at how bad the UI really is. I want to know my balance, I press "I have a fare card", which doesn't make sense in the context of the other initial options (which aren't displayed to start for some reason "press to start" is the first screen). Now there, easy "balance and history option" right. Well page with lots of information appears. Not one of those pieces of information is my history nor my balance. There is a button for history but none for balance. I add 20 dollars because I don't know and can afford it. And I work in the tech industry and consider transit a hobby and have studied these machines extensively.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 09-04-2019

avernar Wrote:
Bytor Wrote:Editorial in the Record: Light rail system needs to meet its promise
https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/9578815-editorial-light-rail-system-needs-to-meet-its-promise/
The article mentions reliability issues.  Anyone know if this is true?  Last I read it was because the special equipment isn't online yet.

No idea: GRT has yet to even acknowledge that Ion is running at lower frequencies than planned, let alone provide anything in the way of explanations or timelines to rectify the situation.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 09-04-2019

(09-04-2019, 07:44 AM)MidTowner Wrote: Ion didn't seem too busy yesterday at UW (I happened to pass through both at noon hour and later in the day), thankfully. I heard complaints from someone I know at KCI that several trains leaving Grand River Hospital were crush loaded. When I got off at GRH, there were a number of students waiting to get on, and that was well past 3:00 (KCI classes end at 2:30).

We really could use that little bit of extra frequency.

You would hope. When I was around yesterday the same time, it seems that it was running every 10 minutes, which doesn't seem a lot during busy times.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - ijmorlan - 09-04-2019

(09-04-2019, 08:48 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Indeed. And not just on trains, the IHT and Laurel trails are absolute madness right now.  The crossing of University Ave gets worse every year.  If that was a road, it would be the regions ONLY traffic congestion priority: LOS: F

I think they should extend the double trail (pedestrian/bicycle) that exists in the park north to just north of University at the pedestrian crossing. Eliminate the berm east of the tracks between Seagram and University, re-arrange the University’s vehicle access and parking a little bit (no need to close or re-route, just minor adjustments to exactly where the parking and curbs are), and extend the double trail right through there, across University, then crossing the tracks at the pedestrian level crossing and ending at Ring Road. That would clear it up pretty significantly I think. At the other end, extend the double trail system past the Perimeter Institute down to the bottleneck at the Clay and Glass Gallery. At the CCGG I don’t see how to do it other than to just pave a single trail absolutely as wide as possible between the CCGG and the LRT fence, although I suppose the latter could be moved a bit closer to the tracks.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - jeffster - 09-04-2019

(09-04-2019, 09:54 AM)Bytor Wrote: Editorial in the Record: Light rail system needs to meet its promise
https://www.therecord.com/opinion-story/9578815-editorial-light-rail-system-needs-to-meet-its-promise/

Oh man, The Records writing is so brutal.

Anyway, though, the point of the article is true. For some reason, I thought it was every 6 minutes during peek, not 8. And certainly not the current 10.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - MidTowner - 09-04-2019

In the project agreement, the service is supposed to be every 7.5 minutes, and every 10 minutes during the summer. It is currently running on the same schedule it was during summer.

RE: ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit - KevinT - 09-04-2019

(09-03-2019, 07:50 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: Not to mention it would power every RF chip card in one's wallet and make the problem worse.

EasyGO and Presto both really fall down here. Mifare and the underlying ISO-14443 protocol allow you to have multiple cards in the read field, and you can query each as it's detected to see if it's got the application you want on it and then shut down the others. Unfortunately it seems that the Presto/EasyGO implementation queries only the first card it 'sees', and if that's not the right one then it coughs up an error and forces you to withdraw. This keeps me from storing my EasyGO card in the flap of my phone case as god intended, since more often than not it detects the phone's NFC first and errors out.

The only reason it should error out is if it detects two EasyGO cards in the field at once, since then there's the question of which one you intended to charge/validate, and it could display a very specific error/instruction message for that case.