Highway 7 - Kitchener to Guelph

[ac3r]

Do you think Toronto would be Toronto without the Gardiner?

No, I think Toronto would be so much better without the Gardiner. If you look at the stats for how people arrive into downtown Toronto it's responsible for such a small fraction, but it divides downtown Toronto in two and cuts it off from the waterfront. Downtown Toronto could be so much more walkable if we got rid of the Gardiner.

I think I should have phrased that better by saying do you think Toronto would have become the city it is now without it. It has been a vital tool in making the core of the city into what it is today. While it is not as busy as it was in the past, it certainly helped the city and continues to do so.

Though, I'm curious what you mean by it "divides downtown Toronto". In what way does it divide anything? Just its physical presence? I know there have been decades worth of research and theory developed that attempt to make the claim that highways and rail lines and such divide cities in negative ways. More often than not, though, the reality is quite different. These high volume arteries function like the arteries in a human being. They provide important connections and thoroughfares through an area, which is especially important when you're dealing with hundreds of thousands to millions of people. We absolutely need them.

Take any of the great cities on this planet. Tokyo, Chicago, Buenos Aires, Vancouver, London, New York City, Berlin etc. They all have an endless list of large physical structures that intersect parts of the city whether they are elevated metro lines, train lines, highways...these days even elevated parks and footpaths. There is nothing preventing people from going underneath these structures, so they don't really "divide" anything. Tokyo has utterly massive corridors for transportation that cut through the city, but it's impossible to argue that Chūō is cut off from Minato despite the dozens of elevated rail lines and roads that sit between the two areas, or that the Shuto Expressway that cuts through the city has a detrimental effect on Tokyo. There are still streets and sidewalks underneath.

Is this just a "cars = bad + you should walk everywhere" thing?

[dtkvictim]

Take any of the great cities on this planet. Tokyo, Chicago, Buenos Aires, Vancouver, London, New York City, Berlin etc. They all have an endless list of large physical structures that intersect parts of the city whether they are elevated metro lines, train lines, highways...these days even elevated parks and footpaths. There is nothing preventing people from going underneath these structures, so they don't really "divide" anything. Tokyo has utterly massive corridors for transportation that cut through the city, but it's impossible to argue that Chūō is cut off from Minato despite the dozens of elevated rail lines and roads that sit between the two areas, or that the Shuto Expressway that cuts through the city has a detrimental effect on Tokyo. There are still streets and sidewalks underneath.

This is a bit off topic IMO, since urban highways are very different. Regardless, the presence of elevated expressways in other "world class" cities doesn't automatically mean we should replicated them, or that they are the reason the cities are world class, or even that those cities don't regret them. Tokyo is a great example, who built many of their expressways the in way they did in a rush before the Olympics and at a time when they were less developed and prosperous. Now they are burying parts of the expressway network, such as over Nihonbashi, and there is quite a bit of discussion of doing more of it (though I can't find much in English). Clearly the locals think it has a detrimental effect.

Train lines definitely can divide neighbourhoods too, but it's not remotely comparable to highways with their local pollution, noise, dangerous ramps, and lack of stations providing neighbourhood hubs with shops and amenities.

I can't believe, especially with a background in understanding how structures impact the humans around them, how someone could spend any time in the vicinity of the Gardner and think it's worth whatever value it provides to the area.

Interesting side note: Most of the Tokyo expressway network has lower speeds than our regional arterials...

[SammyOES]

I think there is a very good case for why, even just on a safety basis, a new better separated Highway 7 is a good idea and could contribute to a better urban landscape than we have now, though the comments on induced demand hazards are completely reasonable given history. I think the highway itself doesn't imply suburban sprawl, it's just that it makes it more feasible. As others said, rural highways linking denser cities are different than urban freeways.

I also think that it's usually a zero-sum evaluation where building the highway means less investment in transit connections between the cities. Partly because it is in a finite tax base and faster car trips means a bigger hill to climb for transit to be convenient. It is possible to do both and for both to be important to facilitate growth and employment.

Building a Highway 7 link that facilitates more frequent and improved intercity buses would be a huge improvement and even more so if building it meant a re-imagining of Victoria St. was done to reduce the car orientation and provide the framework to redevelop those strip mall and light industrial lands into something denser and suitable to active transport.

I think the safety aspect is a big one. And if we don’t want the highway, I understand that - but we have to do something. The current road doesn’t work and it’s getting worse with the constant growth.

I see the highway helping in conjunction with things like a go station and the go bus to Hamilton in that it offers options to people and allow us to build sensible high density neighbourhoods that can support local amenities but also support the reality that many people will still need to travel for things like work.

The worst case, imo, is a road lined with box stores and round abouts that has to support local traffic and a large chunk of traffic just moving between the cities.

I’d rather see the highway built for moving cars/buses/trucks and highway 7 rebuilt for lower speeds, separated bike lanes, and easy access to businesses/neighbourhoods.

[Rainrider22]

I still think a full expressway is overkill

Why? This is one of the fastest growing regions in one of the fastest growing countries on this entire planet. We absolutely need to build all the infrastructure we need now, while also future proofing things. We are projected to have something like just under 1'000'000 people living in Waterloo Region by the 2040s, although we are probably going to blow right past that sooner if past projections offer any suggestion what it'll be like. We are going to need a high capacity road (more specifically, a "road-of-way") into, through and out of the core (Kitchener) of Waterloo Region on the main Eastish-Westish corridor.

As a general question to the forum (not specifically KevinL but since I know everyone here hates roads) do you think great cities could exist without them? Without urban highways? Do you think Toronto would be Toronto without the Gardiner? Amsterdam without A4/5/10? Montréal without Autoroute 40? London without M25? Tokyo without Gaikan? Of course not. These cities obviously knew that you need a high capacity route both through and around the area, so they built it. They also always modify and improve them, too.

Too many people on this forum really need to look at the long term macro prospectus...

Ae someone who routinely uses the Gardiner, I can not imagine not having it.  It would be brutal without it.

[bravado]

But it’s brutal with it?

[danbrotherston]

Why? This is one of the fastest growing regions in one of the fastest growing countries on this entire planet. We absolutely need to build all the infrastructure we need now, while also future proofing things. We are projected to have something like just under 1'000'000 people living in Waterloo Region by the 2040s, although we are probably going to blow right past that sooner if past projections offer any suggestion what it'll be like. We are going to need a high capacity road (more specifically, a "road-of-way") into, through and out of the core (Kitchener) of Waterloo Region on the main Eastish-Westish corridor.

As a general question to the forum (not specifically KevinL but since I know everyone here hates roads) do you think great cities could exist without them? Without urban highways? Do you think Toronto would be Toronto without the Gardiner? Amsterdam without A4/5/10? Montréal without Autoroute 40? London without M25? Tokyo without Gaikan? Of course not. These cities obviously knew that you need a high capacity route both through and around the area, so they built it. They also always modify and improve them, too.

Too many people on this forum really need to look at the long term macro prospectus...

Ae someone who routinely uses the Gardiner, I can not imagine not having it.  It would be brutal without it.

I mean, there's literally hundreds of other roads. If you lack the imagination of not having it, you could also just drive in using one of the other roads and experience it in real life...or take the subway in, or the GO Train.

It really is amazing (in a problematic way) how little people are able to imagine change in their daily lives, no matter how that change really is quite minor in the grand scheme of things.

Like are you honestly telling me that if the Gardiner didn't exist, that driving down Black Creek Dr. or Avenue Rd. (or whatever other road is more convenient) would change anything about your day other than the road you drove on for the last 20 minutes of your trip to Toronto? What exactly do you fear would happen?

[ijmorlan]

The worst case, imo, is a road lined with box stores and round abouts that has to support local traffic and a large chunk of traffic just moving between the cities.

That’s why my proposal is to forbid new driveways and come up with a plan for existing ones (keep as right-in/right-out only, move to adjacent road, eliminate upon redevelopment, …). I agree that it’s a good idea for there to be a reasonably efficient 4-lane road between the cities I just don’t think the expense of a full superhighway is worth it.

[ijmorlan]

I also think that it's usually a zero-sum evaluation where building the highway means less investment in transit connections between the cities. Partly because it is in a finite tax base and faster car trips means a bigger hill to climb for transit to be convenient. It is possible to do both and for both to be important to facilitate growth and employment.

No problem. Let’s put the freeway project on the shelf and bring it back out again once 15-minute rail service has been in place for a couple of years. We’ve seen this bait-and-switch too many times already.

[ijmorlan]

Though, I'm curious what you mean by it "divides downtown Toronto". In what way does it divide anything? Just its physical presence? I know there have been decades worth of research and theory developed that attempt to make the claim that highways and rail lines and such divide cities in negative ways. More often than not, though, the reality is quite different. These high volume arteries function like the arteries in a human being. They provide important connections and thoroughfares through an area, which is especially important when you're dealing with hundreds of thousands to millions of people. We absolutely need them.

I actually don’t think the Gardiner as a barrier is anywhere near the biggest problem with it. You can now walk from well north of it to well south of it without even going outside, and as spare space not used by Lakeshore Blvd. gets turned into useful space like the Bentway, it becomes much more of a mixed bag from an urban design standpoint. For me it is the incredible expense associated with maintenance. Also, my opinions are mostly formed around the issue of the connection to the Don Valley Parkway and points east, rather than the expressway as a whole. I’m quite confident we shouldn’t be re-building the Gardiner–Don Valley connection; I’m less sure about where exactly I would have the QEW/Gardiner end as they come into downtown.