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General Politics Discussion
(10-11-2018, 06:08 AM)jamincan Wrote: I think online voting could potentially be a good way to increase voter engagement at a municipal level. While there are undoubtedly security issues that make it pretty much completely inappropriate for elections at the provincial or federal level, I'm not entirely sure those concerns offset the potential for greater participation at a local level.

<cynic>
I will vote in the municipal election even though my inner cynic says:

Quote:It's not the people who vote that count, it's the people who count the votes.  (Stalin?)

Quote:"I care not who casts the votes of a nation, provided I can count them.  - Napoleon failed to remark.” — New York Times editorial (26 May 1880).

Quote:I consider it completely unimportant who in the party will vote, or how; but what is extraordinarily important is this — who will count the votes, and how. (Stalin)

Election meddling is as old as elections.  And it happens in all political systems.  Just saying.....
</cynic>
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As I think jgsz was saying: if we're having elections, we should have elections that are actually secure. Fundamentally I don't believe that fair online elections are possible, and I don't think any expert would say that either. (I am no expert, but I have followed the news on elections in general).
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(10-11-2018, 06:08 AM)jamincan Wrote: I think online voting could potentially be a good way to increase voter engagement at a municipal level. While there are undoubtedly security issues that make it pretty much completely inappropriate for elections at the provincial or federal level, I'm not entirely sure those concerns offset the potential for greater participation at a local level.

I think we could see a small increase in engagement, but maybe I'm being naive, but is access to voting locations really what's stopping people from voting?  I always thought it was more apathy.
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(10-11-2018, 08:12 AM)plam Wrote: As I think jgsz was saying: if we're having elections, we should have elections that are actually secure. Fundamentally I don't believe that fair online elections are possible, and I don't think any expert would say that either. (I am no expert, but I have followed the news on elections in general).

I believe that is correct. Secure online elections are not possible with current technology, nor with any reasonably foreseeable technology. I am not a security expert myself but that is my understanding of the literature on the subject.

As far as I can tell, this is about as debatable as the fact that carbon dioxide traps heat from the Sun in the Earth’s atmosphere.

By which I mean that ignorant know-nothings, paid shills, and useful idiots will try to argue to the contrary, but among people with valid opinions there is no argument.
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Tritag's election survey is out: http://tritag.ca/election2018/
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Mark McCardle (formerly of eSentire, a cyber security company in Cambridge) posted a twitter thread with his concerns about Cambridge's online voting system last night.

https://twitter.com/mjmcardle/status/104...2333725697
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I would like to see us moving closer to direct democracy and Switzerland has e-Voting, why can't we.

https://www.evoting.ch/en

I think we could also increase voter turnout if we extend the times we can vote. Electronic submissions (the machines we use now) help as well. It would be great if they showed up in more locations though to encourage people to vote. Where the machines turn up remains another nudge for certain types of people. But that makes running an election more expensive.

Online voting could change all that, but as Mark McCardle says it's basically impossible to make it secure.

In Reseach it's all about eliminating noise by increasing the sample and low voter turnouts mean more chance of disruption. It's such a complex problem, but something leads me to believe that somehow we can find a way to maximize sample (eliminate who get's to vote?) so that vulnerabilities in online voting security are less likely.
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(10-11-2018, 10:29 AM)welltoldtales Wrote: I would like to see us moving closer to direct democracy and Switzerland has e-Voting, why can't we.

https://www.evoting.ch/en

I think we could also increase voter turnout if we extend the times we can vote. Electronic submissions (the machines we use now) help as well. It would be great if they showed up in more locations though to encourage people to vote. Where the machines turn up remains another nudge for certain types of people. But that makes running an election more expensive.

Online voting could change all that, but as Mark McCardle says it's basically impossible to make it secure.

In Reseach it's all about eliminating noise by increasing the sample and low voter turnouts mean more chance of disruption. It's such a complex problem, but something leads me to believe that somehow we can find a way to maximize sample (eliminate who get's to vote?) so that vulnerabilities in online voting security are less likely.

Direct democracy isn't necessarily better.  It requires an informed and engaged electorate, something we clearly don't have here.

The point is, the people know what kinds of things they want, clean air, safe city, etc. It should be up to politicians to figure out what policies to implement to achieve those goals.  Putting it up to citizens is very likely to lead to sub optimal results.  This board is an exceptionally informed and well educated group of people, but even we don't have time to study and understand every single issue.  What is the best math curriculum?  What is the best policing policy to achieve safety?

People are more subject to mob effects than politicians.  It has good and bad of course, but it is not clear that direct democracy is better.

I think there is more value in tackling the causes of electorate apathy than making voting easier or more direct.

As for online security, increasing the sample size is irrelevant when it comes to online.  One of the risks with online voting is that, contrary to in person voter fraud, you don't need a large group of people to cheat.  If I find a back door to the online voting system I can possibly generate an unlimited number of false votes.  If I found a back door to the in person voting system, I'd be physically limited in the number of false ballots I could actually generate.
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(10-11-2018, 09:07 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: Tritag's election survey is out: http://tritag.ca/election2018/

Some of the responses are fantastic, some are absolutely astounding though.
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(10-11-2018, 10:29 AM)welltoldtales Wrote: I would like to see us moving closer to direct democracy and Switzerland has e-Voting, why can't we.

https://www.evoting.ch/en

I think we could also increase voter turnout if we extend the times we can vote. Electronic submissions (the machines we use now) help as well. It would be great if they showed up in more locations though to encourage people to vote. Where the machines turn up remains another nudge for certain types of people. But that makes running an election more expensive.

Online voting could change all that, but as Mark McCardle says it's basically impossible to make it secure.

In Reseach it's all about eliminating noise by increasing the sample and low voter turnouts mean more chance of disruption. It's such a complex problem, but something leads me to believe that somehow we can find a way to maximize sample (eliminate who get's to vote?) so that vulnerabilities in online voting security are less likely.

You lost me at direct democracy.

In all reality, I didn't know about their system.  Its interesting.

But are voting hours that much of an issue, aren't they 8 to 8 or something similar?
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