Winter Walking and Cycling

[jeffster]

1) You're 100% ignorant on this topic. So now the snowplough are a danger "to the public" as obviously any sort of fatality wouldn't involve the truck driver (who's max speed will be around 40 kph).

Seemingly trillionth -- I have no idea what you're talking about. Do you know what a trillion is?

What cities have 'managed' to do this fine and with happy customers? Guelph? Ottawa? Some part of Toronto? Ask the man on his mobility device in an suburban centre how his trip went after the storm. I have. Not good. Not happy. "But, they can only do so much...but they should though concentrate on areas where disabled people live..."

And the city DOES plow sidewalks -- just not the entire city. How the hell else would I know that operators have suffered driving this contraptions? Bolded the above for context to my answer.

2) Again, this shows your ignorance in snow removal operations: Meditate on this: teens don't have their full license. Teens can't work 12 hour days and go to school. Teens don't have DZ training and license (D for truck over 24,000 pounds, Z is Air Brake endorsement). Teens can't be 'on-call' for snow removal. Does the city want to spend millions training hundreds of people to get their DZ license to have them only available for a few hours -- maybe? Really, that's your solution?

Second, where did I say that the only public service I "bellieve" should be done by child labour? Child labour, as mandated by the previous Liberal government, never specified what children can and couldn't do, as long as it was safe. Personally, I don't give a rats ass what these kids do. They wanna work at a community centre? Sure. Old age home? Sure. I don't care of the what and where. I was making a suggestion which clearly offended you, for whatever reason. When I was a kid, I shovelled, for free, my elderly neighbours sidewalk. I guess I was a victim of child labour.

And no, no point about me going on with my so-called 'bullshit argument trap'. as clearly you can't handle the truth.

As for my assumption with about volunteerism: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck, it's 100% duck. Your kind works about volunteering shows your viewpoint on it. You wouldn't be so quick to call it child labour if you had a positive viewpoint on this.

1) I never suggested that snowplowing was a "danger to the public" and you're lying to suggest I did. The fatalities I've spoken about did in fact involve the driver.

Yes, trillionth, you know hyperbole, right? 

Yes, lots of people complain about sidewalk clearing, in London where I'm from, I complained about sidewalk clearing in London where I'm from. That doesn't mean it wasn't vastly better than what we have. Like you, I lacked perspective.  Having moved, and traveled more, I now have a better understanding of the different options.

[And yes, we do plow our sidewalks.  So again, it is absurd for you to suggest that we cannot do so....

2) It also requires training to operate a sidewalk plow, your solution is to give them snow blowers instead (a bad idea, but whatever), so let them use snowblowers to clear the road too.

And yes, students volunteer all over, but nobody has ever suggested that the solution to running community centres or old age homes is student volunteers. None of those services depend on child labor, if all the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, the community centres would still be open.  But for sidewalk clearing, you suggest students are the solution, if students stopped volunteering we'd no longer have sidewalk clearing. Are you pretending to not understand the difference here?

Why do you keep specifing that it was the liberal's policy that students must volunteer? Seems very strange, unless you believe it's scoring you political points.

Frankly, you're being dishonest with your discussions here.  I don't know why.

Dan, re-read this entire thread.

1) When a plow operator in doing snow removal, who's more at risk? The driver or the public? This isn't a trick question, and it doesn't require a degree in physics to figure out. When you keep on mentioning that plow operations are a danger, I have to bring out the point that obviously it would be to the public, not the operator -- I just assumed you knew that too, but clearly I was wrong. Obviously you're thinking of the occupation only, drivers of trucks, versus slow moving sidewalk clearing vehicles.

Within the city, or any city, I don't know of any operator that has died as a result of their job, unless their being super careless and speeding. But I don't know of any cases. I do know of cases locally where a plow operator ploughed into a homeless person sleeping on the roadside. I also have heard stories of children building snow castles from snow banks and being injured. As for injuries to those that drive the sidewalk machines, yes, I know of some that have broken bodies as a result of these machines. Not to mention hearing issues. How other cities try to mitigate the risk, I have no idea. Most likely they don't do much and it just come with the territory -- much like abuse if your a bus operator, long hours if your fly commercial jet, etc.

Now operators on the highway? Operators in mountainous regions? Sure, this is likely more dangerous (as to serious injury or death). But this isn't what we're talking about. But that's the only time I can think that there is a danger.

"And yes, we do plow our sidewalks.  So again, it is absurd for you to suggest that we cannot do so...." - yet you were the one that said the city didn't, not me.

2) OK, so now you're digging deeper into that rabbit hole, yes, yes, yes, let's give them a snowblower and they can do the streets as well, because, it's the exact same thing as clearing a stretch of sidewalk, really no different, actually, so you're right. The city would save millions of dollars doing this.

And I didn't suggest the kids run community centres -- it was you that suggested that child labour could run our water supply -- somehow ignoring the fact that these things are different. (snow removal versus water supply)

As for community centres -- do you know how these are run? Each community centre has neighbourhood associations that figure out what programming is needed, needs of their neighbourhood, and when programs would be run and finding instructors for said programs (and how much, if anything, they'll get paid). These are unpaid positions (that is, those that run the neighbourhood associations). So volunteers are responsible for setting up these programs, and they co-ordinate with the city staff. If the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, you wouldn't have your programs running, and therefore the community centres would serve little purpose other than rental enquiries, which likely would be all private. But it shows you lack of knowledge how things are run, your poor attitude towards volunteering and how little value you place on it, because, as you said, "if all the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, the community centres would still be open." Because you know what? If they disappeared tomorrow, the centre would not be open for business as usual. And many other places they depend on volunteers would be screwed, as would their clients. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe volunteers aren't needed and perhaps their useless.

And not trying to score political points with the Liberal initiative -- I'm just making it clear that this is their project, and I am 99% sure there was no intent of creating free child labour. Do I agree with that policy? Not really, but I can't argue that it's a horrible idea and it does have merit.

I also didn't suggest that child labour (as you call it) was the solution to our sidewalks. I said it was an option for children to get their mandated hours in. And I stand by that. When it comes to this child labour, the children can decide for themselves what they want to do. And it would be up to the city to decide if this was a viable solution. Is it worth the costs of buying potentially hundreds of snowblowers, tuning them up after the winter and storing them somewhere, ensuring availability of gas for the machines, and some training. I can't answer that. Perhaps it's a bad solution. Perhaps it's not.

I know where you stand on this topic. I have no problem with someone thinking this is not a great idea. But for discussion purposes, when you're starting off with this 'child labour' crap, and might as well get the children to maintain the water supply while we're at it, and hell, use snowblowers on city roadways and nothing changes if the volunteers disappeared tomorrow, what does it show people? Bring out the popcorn maybe at best? I know I want some after reading your posts.

I do give you a pass regarding the dangers of road snowploughs versus sidewalk snowploughs. You have never been in the field (been the driver for either or), you have never spoken with workers, and I am not going to try to guess where you got your info.