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Winter Walking and Cycling
(06-19-2018, 08:24 AM)creative Wrote: I have to shovel my driveway anyways and the sidewalk only takes less than a minute to do in light snowfall and maybe a few minutes in heavier snowfall. It is also good exercise. I and most of my neighbours will continue to shovel our sidewalks along with our driveways so I don't see how we benefit! I am all for prompt clearing of sidewalks and tighter enforcement which I am sure would be far less expensive. Other than the increased cost of plowing, our neighbourhood would also end up with poorer clearing of sidewalks as we would have to wait for days after a heavy snowfall before our sidewalks would be clear.

Well, you'll benefit when you go somewhere, and everyone else's sidewalks are cleared, too.

I wouldn't expect effective enforcement to be less expensive than the city just clearing the sidewalks, but I guess I don't know for sure. In the neighbourhoods I walk in, I think the city is likely to do a better job of clearing the sidewalks than is done now, but I guess I don't know that for sure, either. It's a good idea for the City to do pilots so we can determine these kinds of things definitively.
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(06-19-2018, 10:11 AM)MidTowner Wrote:
(06-19-2018, 08:24 AM)creative Wrote: I have to shovel my driveway anyways and the sidewalk only takes less than a minute to do in light snowfall and maybe a few minutes in heavier snowfall. It is also good exercise. I and most of my neighbours will continue to shovel our sidewalks along with our driveways so I don't see how we benefit! I am all for prompt clearing of sidewalks and tighter enforcement which I am sure would be far less expensive. Other than the increased cost of plowing, our neighbourhood would also end up with poorer clearing of sidewalks as we would have to wait for days after a heavy snowfall before our sidewalks would be clear.

Well, you'll benefit when you go somewhere, and everyone else's sidewalks are cleared, too.

I wouldn't expect effective enforcement to be less expensive than the city just clearing the sidewalks, but I guess I don't know for sure. In the neighbourhoods I walk in, I think the city is likely to do a better job of clearing the sidewalks than is done now, but I guess I don't know that for sure, either. It's a good idea for the City to do pilots so we can determine these kinds of things definitively.

The problem with enforcement is the bylaw.  Everyone talks about how sidewalks are clear the day after a storm in their neighbourhood, well the bylaw doesn't require that.  In fact, most weeks in the winter, we get some flurries every day, or every other day, those weeks, there is no bylaw requirement to ever clear your sidewalk.

Moreover, even when bylaw does enforce, you get another 24-48 hours (with zero snowfall, again, or the whole thing resets) to clear the sidewalk.  If the property owner fails to do that, city crews will come clear, you know, 36-72 hours later, again, if there's no snow.

So even with 100% enforcement of every sidewalk in the city (expensive) sidewalks could remain blocked nearly indefinitely.
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(06-19-2018, 08:24 AM)creative Wrote: I have to shovel my driveway anyways and the sidewalk only takes less than a minute to do in light snowfall and maybe a few minutes in heavier snowfall. It is also good exercise. I and most of my neighbours will continue to shovel our sidewalks along with our driveways so I don't see how we benefit! I am all for prompt clearing of sidewalks and tighter enforcement which I am sure would be far less expensive. Other than the increased cost of plowing, our neighbourhood would also end up with poorer clearing of sidewalks as we would have to wait for days after a heavy snowfall before our sidewalks would be clear.

Here's the thing. Under the current system, your sidewalk isn't actually promptly cleared. Or maybe in your individual case it is, but for most people it isn't. You can't look at the sidewalk in isolation, you have to consider the entire sidewalk. One neighbour who waits as long as they can to clear the sidewalk means that the entire sidewalk, including the section you cleared in front of your house, is effectively impassable. There are sidewalks in the city that remain impassable for most of the winter due to the way the current by-law and enforcement works.

If the city takes over sidewalk clearing, that changes the matter. You can still spend a few extra minutes clearing it immediately as before, but you no longer have one person negating your efforts by failing to do their part since the city will come by eventually and make sure the entire sidewalk is cleared, not just the little bit in front of your house.
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(06-19-2018, 08:24 AM)creative Wrote: I have to shovel my driveway anyways and the sidewalk only takes less than a minute to do in light snowfall and maybe a few minutes in heavier snowfall. It is also good exercise. I and most of my neighbours will continue to shovel our sidewalks along with our driveways so I don't see how we benefit! I am all for prompt clearing of sidewalks and tighter enforcement which I am sure would be far less expensive. Other than the increased cost of plowing, our neighbourhood would also end up with poorer clearing of sidewalks as we would have to wait for days after a heavy snowfall before our sidewalks would be clear.

You’re OK, so I guess everybody is OK too.
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(06-19-2018, 10:11 AM)MidTowner Wrote: I wouldn't expect effective enforcement to be less expensive than the city just clearing the sidewalks, but I guess I don't know for sure. In the neighbourhoods I walk in, I think the city is likely to do a better job of clearing the sidewalks than is done now, but I guess I don't know that for sure, either. It's a good idea for the City to do pilots so we can determine these kinds of things definitively.

Actually, while it is true that we don’t know the standard to which the city would clear the sidewalks in any hypothetical future where they take over sidewalk clearing, it is a fact that if the city clears all the sidewalks as well as they do the ones that they already clear near my house, then most sidewalks will definitely be cleared better than they are now.

The sidewalks near me are usually down to the pavement where the city clears, and reasonably clear reasonably promptly after snowfall. It is well established in this discussion board that the same cannot be said of non-city-cleared sidewalks.
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Kelly Galloway-Sealock was interviewed today and apparently argued hard for the bylaw enforcement argument on the basis of cost.

How hard, and what sources can we use, to calculate the number of days between the beginning of a snowfall, and when the CoK bylaw actually came into effect. My hunch is this would put this issue to rest pretty damn fast, when we can show that the bylaw doesn't require sidewalks to be cleared for the majority of the snow season. Well, "put to rest" might be a bit much.
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(06-19-2018, 09:27 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Kelly Galloway-Sealock was interviewed today and apparently argued hard for the bylaw enforcement argument on the basis of cost.

How hard, and what sources can we use, to calculate the number of days between the beginning of a snowfall, and when the CoK bylaw actually came into effect.  My hunch is this would put this issue to rest pretty damn fast, when we can show that the bylaw doesn't require sidewalks to be cleared for the majority of the snow season.  Well, "put to rest" might be a bit much.

Maybe everybody should start doing the minimum. Don’t shovel at all until it’s been at least 24 hours since the last snowfall. I think pretty quickly people would realize that something would need to be done. On the other hand, in the short term it would hurt exactly the people we’re trying to help by moving snow clearing to the city.
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(06-19-2018, 09:27 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Kelly Galloway-Sealock was interviewed today and apparently argued hard for the bylaw enforcement argument on the basis of cost.

How hard, and what sources can we use, to calculate the number of days between the beginning of a snowfall, and when the CoK bylaw actually came into effect.  My hunch is this would put this issue to rest pretty damn fast, when we can show that the bylaw doesn't require sidewalks to be cleared for the majority of the snow season.  Well, "put to rest" might be a bit much.

Data can be found / downloaded from here.
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(06-20-2018, 05:50 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: Maybe everybody should start doing the minimum. Don’t shovel at all until it’s been at least 24 hours since the last snowfall. I think pretty quickly people would realize that something would need to be done. On the other hand, in the short term it would hurt exactly the people we’re trying to help by moving snow clearing to the city.

The problem with this is that many property owners are only doing the minimum, and many are doing less than the minimum, and people who walk have realized that something needs to be done...I don't think even worse conditions could convince them even more.
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(06-21-2018, 12:18 PM)MidTowner Wrote:
(06-20-2018, 05:50 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: Maybe everybody should start doing the minimum. Don’t shovel at all until it’s been at least 24 hours since the last snowfall. I think pretty quickly people would realize that something would need to be done. On the other hand, in the short term it would hurt exactly the people we’re trying to help by moving snow clearing to the city.

The problem with this is that many property owners are only doing the minimum, and many are doing less than the minimum, and people who walk have realized that something needs to be done...I don't think even worse conditions could convince them even more.

The funny thing is, most property owners are exceeding the minimum by quite a bit, because the minimum is so terrible, multiple runs of 4-6 days where there is zero snow clearing required by bylaw, almost everyone who actually clears their sidewalks, exceeds this.
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