VIA Rail

[plam]

Nice. But I wonder how the air circulation is on those. On the old equipment there was quite high CO2. Friends of mine just got COVID, perhaps from the train ride? It's hard to tell.

Hmm...hard to say. The LRC cars have a lot of fan noise, I would have assumed that meant they had good air circulation (airplanes usually do have good air circulation as well).

But I honestly have no idea what it's like on any trains (I usually hang out in the vestibules on NS trains...since I'm not usually going that far or I have luggage) so the doors opening provide a lot of fresh air. Via trains stop much less frequently.

That being said, I'm not sure I'll ever ride a train or airplane without a mask again. So far we've avoided COVID (or anything for that matter) on two international trips with many transit legs.

Yeah. It's a cost/benefit ratio thing. What is the benefit of not wearing a mask on a plane... pretty minimal, I find.

[ac3r]

I'd say the benefit is not wearing a mask on a plane (or train). What's the point anymore? Covid-19 is a mild cold at this point for basically anyone but the sort of people who should probably not be flying in an airplane to begin with if they're so vulnerable. We've all had ten thousand booster shots at this point, haven't we? Those work. It's endemic and every single human being with a pulse is going to get it dozens upon dozens of times for as long as they live.

If germs on a plane or whatever scare someone, well...think twice about even touching the attendant call bell or even pushing the Stop button on a bus. There are even worse things out there like methicillin-resistant staphylococcus aureus, hepatitis, vancomycin-resistant enterococci, clostridium difficile and so many more all over every single surface you come across in public. I'll bet a good number of posters on this forum already have at least one of those and they don't even know it (not yet, anyway).

It's just really goofy to keep walking around with a mask at this point because even if someone believes they haven't got it yet (which is basically bullshit unless they've literally been living in a bubble 2 kilometres underground) they are going to get it again and again and again...

[KevinL]

What a horribly insensitive statement. Just because the vulnerable aren't the ones travelling doesn't mean they are not vulnerable otherwise; I live with an immunocompromised person who rarely leaves the house, but neither of us have picked up a COVID infection yet - mainly because I continue to mask in all indoor public spaces.

Masks work, COVID is still a problem (look up what some cases of long COVID can do to a person), it's prudent to take precautions.

[timio]

Covid is still very much a concern as are the many potential side effects, despite the lie that many have chosen to believe that it's not. Also, there are many extremely valid reasons someone may choose to wear a mask in public settings. It's not your right to look down upon those who do or to treat them [or think of them] any differently than those who have chosen not to.

[danbrotherston]

Honestly, if ac3r sneers at people wearing a mask, I am not in the slightest surprised. But they've lived in my head rent free too long.

But, for the record, because it's important to confront missinformation, the following is 100% factual, and not even slightly an opinion.

1. COVID is a serious disease, far FAR more so than the cold, and significantly worse than the flu. This is evidence by data, like, how many people are hospitalized and killed by it, and this is especially true for vulnerable people like elderly loved ones or immunocompromised folks.

2. COVID is more common than the flu. Most people get the flu every couple of years, COVID on the other hand, is more of a 1-10 times a year thing for a lot of people.

3. COVID causes long term disability in ways which the flu does not. If we expect to keep reinfecting the entire population, an increasing percentage of the population will be disabled by it.

4. Boosters, while effective do not last forever, and only a small fraction of the population have gotten them. And even when effective do not entirely stop you from transmitting the virus.

5. Masks ARE effective at preventing infection, and not just COVID but also cold and flu.

Here is the opinion part:

Wearing a mask is a very low bar to avoid getting a cold or the flu to say nothing of avoiding COVID. I often got sick while flying, which really makes a trip much less fun. Since flying with a mask, I've not gotten sick once. Even if COVID was eliminated, I'd still wear a mask while travelling in a crowded metal tube for an extended period of time.

If a person finds it "goofy" for me not to want to kill my parents when I visit them, well, that reflects entirely on their values, not mine, and that's not even to mention what risk factors *I* personally have.

[tomh009]

That being said, I'm not sure I'll ever ride a train or airplane without a mask again. So far we've avoided COVID (or anything for that matter) on two international trips with many transit legs.

Most modern airplanes have HEPA filters and good ventilation, which provides a big reduction in viral transmission. The biggest risks on the plane are the people sitting directly around you.

I would hope that VIA's new trains would have HEPA-filtered air circulation, too, but I really don't know.

[danbrotherston]

That being said, I'm not sure I'll ever ride a train or airplane without a mask again. So far we've avoided COVID (or anything for that matter) on two international trips with many transit legs.

Most modern airplanes have HEPA filters and good ventilation, which provides a big reduction in viral transmission. The biggest risks on the plane are the people sitting directly around you.

I would hope that VIA's new trains would have HEPA-filtered air circulation, too, but I really don't know.

True, ventilation on planes is reasonably good. I do think a lot of the risk also comes from boarding and deplaning and various lines and crowded areas of the airport.

But unless you know all the folks sitting around you, I think there's still reason to wear them on the plane.

Like I said, getting some respiratory infection while travelling is fairly common, COVID is not different in that respect.

[tomh009]

But unless you know all the folks sitting around you, I think there's still reason to wear them on the plane.

Like I said, getting some respiratory infection while travelling is fairly common, COVID is not different in that respect.

No argument there. But using HEPA filters on a modern train (like the new VIA ones) would significantly reduce risk for everyone. Especially since trains usually don't suffer from the same level of congestion as planes and airports.

[danbrotherston]

But unless you know all the folks sitting around you, I think there's still reason to wear them on the plane.

Like I said, getting some respiratory infection while travelling is fairly common, COVID is not different in that respect.

No argument there. But using HEPA filters on a modern train (like the new VIA ones) would significantly reduce risk for everyone. Especially since trains usually don't suffer from the same level of congestion as planes and airports.

Oh, I completely agree. I think broadly we should be improving ventilation, although FWIW, I think HEPA is mostly important for recirculating air. If all the air is fresh air introduced from outside, that's mostly not a big deal (on an airplane, this is obviously less possible, due to outside conditions and the need to keep the cabin pressurized). Of course, this would be even more true if our outdoor air wasn't quite as polluted, which we *could* achieve, but don't seem to place a high priority on, except when we do, which is usually just as a lie to try and promote cars (you know, when they opposed the UPX because it was diesel, or when they try to justify widening roads, etc.).

The nice thing about straight ventilation vs. using HEPA filters is that the maintenance is much less critical to keeping the system working. If you aren't relying on expensive and frequently replaced filters, there's no opportunity for someone to cut the budget line and pull the filters...or to put it another way, passive systems are best.

Although re-circulation is also best for energy efficiency.

[panamaniac]

VIA trains blend recirculated and fresh air, passed through MERV 13 filters, based on what I've seen on-line.

[danbrotherston]

VIA trains blend recirculated and fresh air, passed through MERV 13 filters, based on what I've seen on-line.

Interesting. MERV 13 is not nothing, but the bigger question I have is what is wrong with the system if CO2 is still going really high (I haven't personally measured this mind you). If it was blending significant fresh air, the CO2 would stay reasonably low. My guess is that the amount of fresh air is a configurable parameter, possibly even depending on outdoor conditions.

[tomh009]

MERV 13 is decent, but still well below the level of HEPA (which is MERV 17 or better).

[panamaniac]

VIA trains blend recirculated and fresh air, passed through MERV 13 filters, based on what I've seen on-line.

Interesting. MERV 13 is not nothing, but the bigger question I have is what is wrong with the system if CO2 is still going really high (I haven't personally measured this mind you). If it was blending significant fresh air, the CO2 would stay reasonably low. My guess is that the amount of fresh air is a configurable parameter, possibly even depending on outdoor conditions.

According to VIA (again based on what I've seen on-line) CO2 levels on its trains do not exceed permitted levels.

[danbrotherston]

Interesting. MERV 13 is not nothing, but the bigger question I have is what is wrong with the system if CO2 is still going really high (I haven't personally measured this mind you). If it was blending significant fresh air, the CO2 would stay reasonably low. My guess is that the amount of fresh air is a configurable parameter, possibly even depending on outdoor conditions.

According to VIA (again based on what I've seen on-line) CO2 levels on its trains do not exceed permitted levels.

Trains are also intended to arrive on time. I would trust the people who have actually measured the levels more than Via in this case.

[plam]

According to VIA (again based on what I've seen on-line) CO2 levels on its trains do not exceed permitted levels.

Trains are also intended to arrive on time. I would trust the people who have actually measured the levels more than Via in this case.

I have definitely measured CO2 levels on trains with a co2.click and found them to be high. From memory it was in the 2000 range, but it's been a while.