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Toronto transit projects
Does Alstom include some maintenance etc that Bombardier does not? The price difference looks just too big.
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(06-24-2017, 11:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Now, to be fair, I fully expect Bombardier to be able to deliver eventually, and if the Alstoms really cost 3 times as much there is something wrong somewhere — it’s a bit much for these vehicles to cost even $4M each, but $12M is just ridiculous — but to date we don’t actually know for certain that Bombardier can deliver a complete, working vehicle, in this market.

But we don't know Alstom can, either. Yeah, they've had a train sort of moving every now and then on their test track, but that's it. It's still missing all sorts of panels, etc. - they're only slightly ahead of Bombardier in that regard.
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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(06-25-2017, 06:52 AM)Canard Wrote:
(06-24-2017, 11:16 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Now, to be fair, I fully expect Bombardier to be able to deliver eventually, and if the Alstoms really cost 3 times as much there is something wrong somewhere — it’s a bit much for these vehicles to cost even $4M each, but $12M is just ridiculous — but to date we don’t actually know for certain that Bombardier can deliver a complete, working vehicle, in this market.

But we don't know Alstom can, either.  Yeah, they've had a train sort of moving every now and then on their test track, but that's it.  It's still missing all sorts of panels, etc. - they're only slightly ahead of Bombardier in that regard.

You’re talking about Ottawa, right? You’re right, of course — unless and until they deliver, we won’t really know. Are they on schedule, however? We know Bombardier is late. Is Alstom just not done yet, as scheduled, or were they supposed to be farther along by now?
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Where is this $12m per vehicle cost coming from? The article Canard posted says $528 million for 61 vehicles which is $8.65 million per vehicle and aligns with previous reporting of average vehicle costs of $8.7 vs. 4.2 million per vehicle; and the Alstrom vehicle is bigger which explains part of the difference (the cost is nearly proportional by the vehicle capacity ($29,642 vs. $25,609 per passenger seat).
Everyone move to the back of the bus and we all get home faster.
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(06-25-2017, 11:31 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: Where is this $12m per vehicle cost coming from? The article Canard posted says $528 million for 61 vehicles which is $8.65 million per vehicle and aligns with previous reporting of average vehicle costs of $8.7 vs. 4.2 million per vehicle; and the Alstrom vehicle is bigger which explains part of the difference (the cost is nearly proportional by the vehicle capacity ($29,642 vs. $25,609 per passenger seat).

It’s also worth mentioning that it’s not appropriate to characterize the entire amount spent on Alstom cars as being “blown”, even if we assume that there is no benefit whatsoever to the higher price for Alstom: only the amount more than the Bombardier cars would cost could conceivably be a waste. I’m assuming that we believe the cars are needed in the first place but I don’t think even Metrolinx would contract to buy cars they don’t believe they’ll need.

On a somewhat related note, did anybody notice that John Tory is saying that the choice of modes on Sheppard (LRT vs. subway) is still open, even though a sensible decision to build LRT was taken something like 10 years ago? While in Scarborough, the idiotic decision to build subway is final, even though that project is nowhere near beginning actual construction.
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Yes, it is "blown" because they already didn't have a home for half of the 182 Flexities on order.  So they just wasted even more money buying Alstom LRV's.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/met...19/page-89
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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I think I see now. I think the $12 million is suppose to be the sum of the two average price per vehicle ($8.7 + $4.2) which would be ok if there were the same number of vehicles from each manufacturer, but there are not; there are nearly three times as many Bombardier vehicles which significantly lowers the average price. I guess if none of the Bombardier vehicles ever get delivered AND there is no refund that would increase the average price to $12 million per vehicle too; but that seems unlikely).

The contracts were $770 million (Bombardier) + $528 million (Alstrom) or $1.298 billion or $5.34 million average price per vehicle; an average price of $12 million is misleading.
Everyone move to the back of the bus and we all get home faster.
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(06-25-2017, 05:21 PM)Canard Wrote: Yes, it is "blown" because they already didn't have a home for half of the 182 Flexities on order.  So they just wasted even more money buying Alstom LRV's.

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/met...19/page-89

Ok, I see what you’re getting at. Although if we want to be really pessimistic about Bombardier maybe Metrolinx is counting on being able to reduce the contract.

Or we can be optimistic and believe that Metrolinx is actually planning to construct the Sheppard LRT and possibly other LRTs besides. This order could be partially diverted to Mississauga and Hamilton.

Or maybe there will just end up being a fire sale on unneeded vehicles.
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...in which case, we win! Big Grin
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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Well, as Ontario taxpayers, we also lose. But that loss is more spread out.
My Twitter: @KevinLMaps
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