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We paid $37B above market?
#11
(06-21-2016, 02:34 PM)panamaniac Wrote: The day Patrick Brown, or anyone else for that matter, comes up with some concrete details of how they'll get hydro costs down, without incurring major debt or launching the Province into law-suit land, he'll be worth a look.

Exactly.

I hear comments from businesses a lot, too. Just last week, a business operator was commenting that hydro prices will be one determinant of where he chooses to locate an expansion. He was able to list prices per kWh in several U.S. states.

But I question how electricity costs in Ontario could be brought down. The costs associated with nuclear cannot be changed now; renewables at their current miniscule share of the mix contribute far less to the costs than a lot of people suggest; and salaries are probably a small part of the problem, too.

I’m not a partisan, but the Liberal move to close our coal plants was a good one that will have significant benefits. Bringing it back (I don’t think anyone is proposing this but, hey, it is cheap) isn’t advisable, and probably wouldn’t be a huge savings, anyway. There are no realistic ways of seriously holding costs and, while there aren’t, it’s at best a distraction to talk about our high hydro prices.
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#12
(06-21-2016, 02:55 PM)MidTowner Wrote: … renewables at their current miniscule share of the mix …

Wind is undependable, but sometimes exceeds the fraction from gas.

http://www.ieso.ca/Pages/Power-Data/default.aspx#supply
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#13
It’s true that production from wind exceeds that from gas overnight sometimes. Overall, though, about 10% of our electricity is produced from wind, less than 1% from solar, and 30% from gas. Maybe 10% isn’t quite miniscule, but it’s a small piece of the pie, and it’s not a huge part of the reason our rates are what they are.
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#14
Well "BlackBerry Polisher" if you read my post you would see that Root Data centre received 25M in Private Equity Financing and decided to locate in Quebec where Electricity Rates are lower as it made the business case dead simple for them. So yes for RoW to be successful in the Tech Startups Community there are some fundamental things that the government needs to address to make it more affordable for companies to locate here. I don't really care which provincial government does it but having us over pay for electricity is a major deterrent. Not having access to a skilled workforce is another deterrent. Once you have a startup get off the ground then you need good management that continues to innovate or you end with the fate of a RIM/Blackberry.
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#15
Hard to have a fair comparison with Quebec and its oodles of hydro power.
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#16
(06-21-2016, 04:51 PM)plam Wrote: Hard to have a fair comparison with Quebec and its oodles of hydro power.

And the insulting rates they pay to Newfoundland for Churchill Falls power.
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#17
(06-21-2016, 03:55 PM)IEFBR14 Wrote: Well "BlackBerry Polisher" if you read my post you would see that Root Data centre received 25M in Private Equity Financing and decided to locate in Quebec where Electricity Rates are lower as it made the business case dead simple for them.  So yes for RoW to be successful in the Tech Startups Community there are some fundamental things that the government needs to address to make it more affordable for companies to locate here.  I don't really care which provincial government does it but having us over pay for electricity is a major deterrent.  Not having access to a skilled workforce is another deterrent.  Once you have a startup get off the ground then you need good management that continues to innovate or you end with the fate of a RIM/Blackberry.

You correctly pointed out that many data centres won't locate in Ontario because electricity is expensive, but then made the leap to tech startups won't locate here? I don't see how that follows. Yes, tech startups need data centers, but they don't need to be near them. 99% of startups will never set foot in a datacenter, just interact with them in the form of AWS or Azure. I'm not even sure why we'd want to attract datacenters, they're large and provide little employment.

Tech startups also aren't particularly concerned about the cost of electricity. Offices really don't consume that much of it, and electricity is a trivial cost compared to the salaries they have to pay. It's heavy industry with cheap labour that worries about electricity prices, not tech companies.

You're right about skilled workforce though, that's absolutely the biggest factor in where tech companies locate. It just doesn't seem to have any connection to the rest of your points.
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#18
(06-21-2016, 03:55 PM)IEFBR14 Wrote:  So yes for RoW to be successful in the Tech Startups Community there are some fundamental things that the government needs to address to make it more affordable for companies to locate here.

It's plenty affordable already, and the tech startup sector is growing rather rapidly. It's maybe even too affordable, in that at the wages companies tend to offer here, they're having a hard time competing with California. But that's a whole different story.

Rents matter, electricity not so much.
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#19
(06-21-2016, 07:40 PM)mpd618 Wrote:
(06-21-2016, 03:55 PM)IEFBR14 Wrote:  So yes for RoW to be successful in the Tech Startups Community there are some fundamental things that the government needs to address to make it more affordable for companies to locate here.

It's plenty affordable already, and the tech startup sector is growing rather rapidly. It's maybe even too affordable, in that at the wages companies tend to offer here, they're having a hard time competing with California. But that's a whole different story.

Rents matter, electricity not so much.

I wonder how much this has been studied?  I know wages in the Region would be far below those prevailing in California, but how does the cost of living overall compare?
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#20
(06-21-2016, 07:44 PM)panamaniac Wrote: I wonder how much this has been studied?  I know wages in the Region would be far below those prevailing in California, but how does the cost of living overall compare?

Haven't seen any studies, however the anecdotes are that the cost of living difference is large but the salary difference is often much larger. At least for people without families - but once you lose them to California, you might lose them permanently.
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