Regional Council Election Discussion

[plam]

Does anyone think that Cambridge being the only community to have electronic voting this year and also being the community seemingly most upset by lrt will influnce the regional chair vote by a significant degree?

This vote could be very close given that last time around Milligan got 20,000 votes to Seiling's 77,000 using very few resources.

I don't know how close the vote will be. We'll know soon enough. But I think that some people would like to vote for someone who is not the incumbent. 77,000 to 20,000 would not be close at all, and I think that is probably about the number of "some people" that are out there.

I'm strongly against electronic voting and I really did not like seeing that in Dave Jaworsky's platform. I don't believe that it can actually be secure, for a number of reasons. But my suspicion is that it's not really going to affect turnout. I have no real evidence, but I think it's apathy rather than inconvenience that decreases voter numbers.

[fakepnijjar]

If you want to fight Aissa, Ken Seiling's campaign could use your help. You can find his page on Facebook, where there are a number of canvassing / flyer distribution events this weekend you can join.

Saturday event: https://www.facebook.com/events/1478188865777788/
Meet in front of William's at Kitchener City Hall
Evening shift (the only one left): 5pm-8pm

Sunday event: https://www.facebook.com/events/1561123970767746/
Meet in front of William's at Kitchener City Hall
Morning shift: 10am - 12:30pm
Afternoon shift: 1:30pm-5pm

They want you to RSVP, but I doubt they'll kick you out if you just show up.

[rangersfan]

Local journalist Mike Mculloch takes a look at some of Jay Assia's recent campaign activity and gives them a dose of reality.
http://mikemcculloch.ca/

[Spokes]

Does anyone think that Cambridge being the only community to have electronic voting this year and also being the community seemingly most upset by lrt will influnce the regional chair vote by a significant degree?

This vote could be very close given that last time around Milligan got 20,000 votes to Seiling's 77,000 using very few resources.

The new video ads on Aissa's site, particularly the one with in the style of the artist's hand diagramming the narration are worse than the wolf radio ads I think.

I saw somewhere that the electronic voting has resulted in much higher turn outs thus far.

[JoeKW]

I'm strongly against electronic voting. Voting should be by secret ballot, free from repercussions and intimidation from your boss, spouse or anyone else.

[ookpik]

I'm strongly against electronic voting.  Voting should be by secret ballot, free from repercussions and intimidation from your boss, spouse or anyone else.

How is electronic voting any less "secret" or any more susceptible to "repercussions and intimidation from your boss, spouse or anyone else" than voting by paper ballot?

[curiouschair]

I saw somewhere that the electronic voting has resulted in much higher turn outs thus far.

It was certainly for some other jurisdiction, but I recall reading somewhere that online voting actually resulted in lower voter turnout. I personally doubt that adding electronic voting would have any real affect on voter turn out.

[mpd618]

How is electronic voting any less "secret" or any more susceptible to "repercussions and intimidation from your boss, spouse or anyone else" than voting by paper ballot?

It is easy for your spouse to vote "for" you, or coerce you to voting for who they want. Basically, someone can be present with you when you are voting and cause you to change your vote.

[ookpik]

It is easy for your spouse to vote "for" you, or coerce you to voting for who they want.

I wouldn't characterize it as "easy" but I'll acknowledge that it's possible. It's also possible to coerce or bribe others with a paper system although admittedly it may be harder to confirm that they actually voted as directed.

On a related theme, my wife is apolitical. Every election, federal, provincial and municipal, she asks me who to vote for. I presume she takes my advice. I've tried hard to explain to her that she needs to do her own research and make her own decisions rather than rely on mine. And yet I know that tomorrow she'll ask me who she should vote for. Anything wrong with this practice, (1) on my part and (2) on hers?

Basically, someone can be present with you when you are voting and cause you to change your vote.

This reminds me of all the fraudulent voting the Conservatives were going to stop by requiring more stringent voter and/or voucher ID and checking at the polls. Yet despite the rampant abuses they claimed necessitated "reform" they couldn't provide any concrete evidence of such activity. Could this be another such phantom?

[Spokes]

I saw somewhere that the electronic voting has resulted in much higher turn outs thus far.

It was certainly for some other jurisdiction, but I recall reading somewhere that online voting actually resulted in lower voter turnout. I personally doubt that adding electronic voting would have any real affect on voter turn out.

In terms of advanced voting, according to The Record it's up 40% in Cambridge

[plam]

I'm strongly against electronic voting.  Voting should be by secret ballot, free from repercussions and intimidation from your boss, spouse or anyone else.

How is electronic voting any less "secret" or any more susceptible to "repercussions and intimidation from your boss, spouse or anyone else" than voting by paper ballot?

It is much easier to screencap an electronic vote than a paper ballot, where I presume the election officials will prevent you from taking a picture of your ballot.

Basically, someone can be present with you when you are voting and cause you to change your vote.

This reminds me of all the fraudulent voting the Conservatives were going to stop by requiring more stringent voter and/or voucher ID and checking at the polls. Yet despite the rampant abuses they claimed necessitated "reform" they couldn't provide any concrete evidence of such activity. Could this be another such phantom?

I think the electronic voting push is not typically associated with the US conservative movement.

It was certainly for some other jurisdiction, but I recall reading somewhere that online voting actually resulted in lower voter turnout. I personally doubt that adding electronic voting would have any real affect on voter turn out.

In terms of advanced voting, according to The Record it's up 40% in Cambridge

Advance voting is up all over in the latest trends, I think.

More against online voting: computers really aren't secure. It's too easy to attack computers and install arbitrary malware. In terms of voting, that would be really bad. (No, online banking is not the same. The bank guarantees your account's integrity. No one can possibly guarantee the integrity of your vote).

[isUsername]

How is electronic voting any less "secret" or any more susceptible to "repercussions and intimidation from your boss, spouse or anyone else" than voting by paper ballot?

It is much easier to screencap an electronic vote than a paper ballot, where I presume the election officials will prevent you from taking a picture of your ballot.

They don't prevent you from taking a photo. I've seen people post photos of their ballots online, but its illegal to show anyone (other than someone assisting you with the act of voting) your ballot. Poll officials will have questions if they see someone standing over another person's shoulder while they're voting. There's no way of knowing if someone is standing over another person's shoulder when they vote online, however.

In terms of advanced voting, according to The Record it's up 40% in Cambridge

Advance voting is up all over in the latest trends, I think.

More against online voting: computers really aren't secure. It's too easy to attack computers and install arbitrary malware. In terms of voting, that would be really bad. (No, online banking is not the same. The bank guarantees your account's integrity. No one can possibly guarantee the integrity of your vote).

Banks also consider fraud part of the cost of doing business. They're willing to accept paying some compensation in order to give their customers the convenience of online banking. You can't "compensate" an elector or the electorate for election fraud.

[ookpik]

It is much easier to screencap an electronic vote than a paper ballot, where I presume the election officials will prevent you from taking a picture of your ballot.

What's possible isn't necessarily probable. Do you have evidence of such abuses in jurisdictions that now have electronic voting?

I think the electronic voting push is not typically associated with the US conservative movement.

My point has nothing to do with the US conservative movement. The federal Conservatives introduced voting reform legislation a few months ago to combat supposed abuses in the current system. However they couldn't provide any real examples when asked to show why it was necessary. (Remember the MP who claimed he'd seen such abuses at a poll then quickly retracted his claims and apologized for lying to the House?)

I'm concerned that similar misinformation may be used by those who oppose electronic-voting. Hence my request for evidence of such abuse.

[plam]

I think the electronic voting push is not typically associated with the US conservative movement.

My point has nothing to do with the US conservative movement. The federal Conservatives introduced voting reform legislation a few months ago to combat supposed abuses in the current system. However they couldn't provide any real examples when asked to show why it was necessary. (Remember the MP who claimed he'd seen such abuses at a poll then quickly retracted his claims and apologized for lying to the House?)

I'm concerned that similar misinformation may be used by those who oppose electronic-voting. Hence my request for evidence of such abuse.

Electronic voting (even in person on machines, which is rare in Canada but exists in the US) is vulnerable to documented attacks, e.g.: http://www.salon.com/2011/09/27/votinghack/. I'm not aware of any such hacks being deployed in an election, but there was controversy about Diebold voting machine in the US: http://blackboxvoting.com/s9/index.php?/...-Bush.html (For what it's worth, Waterloo's voting machines are probably fine because you mark your ballot in a way that can be recounted by hand).

Electronic voting on home computers is better in some ways but worse in many ways, because computers aren't secure and because there is no simple way to guarantee the integrity of an election with secret ballots.

It's very different populations who oppose electronic voting than who aim to suppress voters. Voter suppression is associated with US Republicans, and the Canadian Conservatives have been following along. The anti electronic voting camp, on the other hand, is led by distinguished experts in Computer Science. Andrew Appel, a Princeton professor and a Fellow of the Assocation for Computing Machinery, is one example of such an expert.

[JoeKW]

I feel stupid asking this, but for Kitchener Regional Council, do we vote for 4 people since 4 are elected or just 1?