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Shift London
#16
Back to Shift, though, Markster claimed that the "grade separation" had been axed. It hasn't. And hopefully it won't be.
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#17
(05-18-2017, 01:26 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 12:40 PM)MidTowner Wrote: "Get out your umbrella. The great BRT watering down is upon us.

The grade separation would never be axed if it were LRT."

Grade separation hasn't been axed, has it? Just the Richmond Street tunnel.

Anyway, there are examples of LRTs (both historic and "modern") being made to run in mixed traffic.

No there aren't.  Any "LRT" running in mixed traffic is legally a streetcar.

Lets not confuse the two.  Our LRT is *not* a streetcar because it lacks the equipment and legal certification to operate in mixed traffic, thus *must* operate in it's own right of way.

What “equipment”? Our vehicles are very similar to the new Toronto streetcars. I suppose maybe you mean turn signals and the like? But those could be added easily. Also is there an actual legal distinction between an LRT and a streetcar? If so, please cite the appropriate chapter of the statutes and regulations of Ontario.
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#18
(05-18-2017, 01:48 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 01:26 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: No there aren't.  Any "LRT" running in mixed traffic is legally a streetcar.

Lets not confuse the two.  Our LRT is *not* a streetcar because it lacks the equipment and legal certification to operate in mixed traffic, thus *must* operate in it's own right of way.

What “equipment”? Our vehicles are very similar to the new Toronto streetcars. I suppose maybe you mean turn signals and the like? But those could be added easily. Also is there an actual legal distinction between an LRT and a streetcar? If so, please cite the appropriate chapter of the statutes and regulations of Ontario.

The chapter requiring things like "turn signals, mirrors, etc.".  And yes, they are "similar" to Toronto's vehicles.  The devil is in the differences though.
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#19


For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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#20
(05-18-2017, 08:19 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-18-2017, 01:48 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: What “equipment”? Our vehicles are very similar to the new Toronto streetcars. I suppose maybe you mean turn signals and the like? But those could be added easily. Also is there an actual legal distinction between an LRT and a streetcar? If so, please cite the appropriate chapter of the statutes and regulations of Ontario.

The chapter requiring things like "turn signals, mirrors, etc.".  And yes, they are "similar" to Toronto's vehicles.  The devil is in the differences though.

Ok, thanks, that makes sense. But I don’t think our line would stop being LRT if we added turn signals and mirrors (both at both ends, I suppose) and had some non-dedicated-lane street running. In reality there is no bright line between streetcar and LRT, or for that matter between LRT and regular passenger rail. There is even no bright line between real trains and model trains. But that’s another story…
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#21
(05-18-2017, 09:09 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: Ok, thanks, that makes sense. But I don’t think our line would stop being LRT if we added turn signals and mirrors (both at both ends, I suppose) and had some non-dedicated-lane street running. In reality there is no bright line between streetcar and LRT, or for that matter between LRT and regular passenger rail. There is even no bright line between real trains and model trains. But that’s another story…

I do agree, legally there is a distinction, but, same as BRT in reality they form a spectrum.

But for one, it's been hard to fight the argument that "its just a streetcar" which is clearly untrue, given people's experience with slow congested streetcars in Toronto, this is an important perception to fight (some Toronto Streetcar lines are more LRTs now anyway).  As you've seen this is a common and unfortunately effective argument in our region.

For another, this is one of the big reasons I prefer LRT is *because* there is a legal distinction, it makes it much harder to compromise an LRT project by making it run mixed traffic, when the going gets tough (and when segregation is most important), than it is a BRT system where buses can already operate in traffic without modification.

I am willing to bet that if we had a BRT system, we'd have the route travel straight down King and into mixed traffic in uptown and downtown (which has some advantages, in not having a split route), but it would be stuck in traffic every time.
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#22
Speaking of streetcars, I believe that the Toronto ones do not have license plates even if they have turn signals etc. That was just something I've wondered about. Presumably LRTs won't have plates either.
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#23
(05-18-2017, 09:15 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: But for one, it's been hard to fight the argument that "its just a streetcar" which is clearly untrue, […]

Except for the 12 km/h sections, traffic lights, sidewalk boarding, …
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#24
(05-19-2017, 06:12 AM)plam Wrote: Speaking of streetcars, I believe that the Toronto ones do not have license plates even if they have turn signals etc. That was just something I've wondered about. Presumably LRTs won't have plates either.

I imagine the rules on that don't require them on a vehicle confined to rails.
My Twitter: @KevinLMaps
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#25
(05-20-2017, 03:47 PM)KevinL Wrote:
(05-19-2017, 06:12 AM)plam Wrote: Speaking of streetcars, I believe that the Toronto ones do not have license plates even if they have turn signals etc. That was just something I've wondered about. Presumably LRTs won't have plates either.

I imagine the rules on that don't require them on a vehicle confined to rails.

Highway Traffic Act Wrote:"motor vehicle” includes an automobile, a motorcycle, a motor-assisted bicycle unless
otherwise indicated in this Act, and any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than
by muscular power, but does not include a street car or other motor vehicle running only
upon rails
, a power-assisted bicycle, a motorized snow vehicle, a traction engine, a farm
tractor, a self-propelled implement of husbandry or a road-building machine; (“véhicule
automobile”)”

Coke
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#26
(05-23-2017, 09:17 AM)Coke6pk Wrote:
(05-20-2017, 03:47 PM)KevinL Wrote: I imagine the rules on that don't require them on a vehicle confined to rails.

Highway Traffic Act Wrote:"motor vehicle” includes an automobile, a motorcycle, a motor-assisted bicycle unless
otherwise indicated in this Act, and any other vehicle propelled or driven otherwise than
by muscular power, but does not include a street car or other motor vehicle running only
upon rails
, a power-assisted bicycle, a motorized snow vehicle, a traction engine, a farm
tractor, a self-propelled implement of husbandry or a road-building machine; (“véhicule
automobile”)”

Coke

Thanks, that's just what I was wondering.

In Montreal to be a metro driver you start out driving buses, so I imagine you have to keep your bus drivers' license active. It'll be different driver pools here, so not quite the same thing.
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#27
According to the HTA (at least in Ontario), you wouldn't even need a drivers licence to operate it. [Although I'm sure it will still be a job requirement]. Same reason a 14 year old could take a plow or tractor [self-propelled implement of husbandry] out for a spin down the road...

Coke
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#28
(05-24-2017, 03:02 PM)Coke6pk Wrote: According to the HTA (at least in Ontario), you wouldn't even need a drivers licence to operate it.

No person shall drive a street car on a highway unless he or she holds a driver’s licence.  R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 32 (2).

Sorry, I just had the HTA open!

A bunch of other parts contain the phrase ‘In this section, “motor vehicle” includes a street car’.
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#29
(05-24-2017, 03:54 PM)kps Wrote:
(05-24-2017, 03:02 PM)Coke6pk Wrote: According to the HTA (at least in Ontario), you wouldn't even need a drivers licence to operate it.

No person shall drive a street car on a highway unless he or she holds a driver’s licence.  R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 32 (2).

Sorry, I just had the HTA open!

A bunch of other parts contain the phrase ‘In this section, “motor vehicle” includes a street car’.

Here is where the legal definition of our train becomes important again.  Since it is not a street car, I would suspect that a drivers license would indeed not be required (and it certainly wouldn't be for the Montreal Metro).

That being said, if I had to guess, ever conservative around the regulatory line Grandlinq will have it as a requirement, and frankly, that probably does make some sense given it is operating within the roadway ROW, even if not as a street car.
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#30
(05-24-2017, 05:59 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(05-24-2017, 03:54 PM)kps Wrote: No person shall drive a street car on a highway unless he or she holds a driver’s licence.  R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 32 (2).

Here is where the legal definition of our train becomes important again.  Since it is not a street car, […]

Err, what?
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