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General Road and Highway Discussion
(07-17-2017, 07:24 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: But I don’t see how we can have a good discussion if some people don’t understand that roads are free to use.

I don't see how we can have a good discussion if some people don't recognize the absurdity of statements like "but ignore the enormous subsidy paid to drivers in the form of effectively free and unlimited roads".  Free to use and enormously subsidized ARE. NOT. THE. SAME. THING. (Not to mention the absurdity of a phrase like 'unlimited roads')  I've spent way too much time arguing on the internet, but a good tell on if someone is willing to discuss an issue honestly is how they react to people 'on their side' that use incorrect/wrong arguments.


(07-17-2017, 07:24 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: You can’t send less money to the government by not driving. (OK, if you don’t drive at all, you can save on the minor expense of car registration and driver licensing; and if you drive less you spend less on gas tax, which doesn’t mean regular HST but the gas-specific tax; but neither of those come close to paying for the full cost of road construction and upkeep).

Note, this is a good example of poor logic.  You want to talk about sending less money to the Government.  A proportion of the "regular HST" wouldn't be sent to the Government if people didn't drive.  We've mentioned numerous examples above (spending on non-taxable goods, savings, travel or foreign goods, spending by tourists and non-residents when getting gas here, etc.).  Again, I've argued enough on the internet that when people keep repeating already debunked statements, it's time to give up.

(07-17-2017, 07:24 AM)ijmorlan Wrote: So to be accurate, you can’t send significantly less money to the government by not driving. Roads are paid for by the general taxpayer, not by their users in rough proportion to the extent of their use.

Yes, but because the vast majority of the general taxpayers are drivers, its absurd to say they're getting "enormous subsidies".  Anyway, it's pretty clear how this debate goes on this forum.  So, I guess I'll let this die again and then in a couple of months when you or Dan come back with your ridiculous simplifications I'll just pop my head back in with:

(07-12-2017, 08:53 PM)SammyOES2 Wrote: Oh we're back to the silly argument where a lot of people pay a bunch of money for roads, but we don't count that money because that's in their role as "tax payer" and not as their role of "car driver".  Maybe that explains those times when I just can't get to sleep.  I bet "tax payer" me is just really angry at "road user" me because "tax payer" me is so heavily subsidizing "road user" me.
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General Road and Highway Discussion - by The85 - 01-18-2015, 12:24 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 02-26-2015, 12:04 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 02-26-2015, 01:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 04-19-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 05-11-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 05-27-2015, 08:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-25-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 10-19-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 11-12-2015, 10:53 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 12-07-2015, 09:58 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 12-07-2015, 11:03 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 12-07-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 12-09-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by Andy - 02-26-2016, 03:00 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 03-29-2016, 02:04 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 03-29-2016, 03:27 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 05-30-2016, 11:41 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 06-24-2016, 09:18 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 06-24-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 06-24-2016, 11:53 AM
Stop the Madness! - by IEFBR14 - 06-25-2016, 01:53 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 06-26-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by KW65 - 09-05-2016, 08:59 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-06-2016, 01:53 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-07-2016, 12:09 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 09-20-2016, 01:24 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 09-23-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 09-26-2016, 09:32 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-29-2016, 09:52 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-29-2016, 10:50 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 11-11-2016, 07:56 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 11-19-2016, 12:19 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 11-19-2016, 11:37 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 12-05-2016, 01:46 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 12-14-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 12-16-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 12-16-2016, 07:01 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 12-17-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 12-17-2016, 06:25 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 12-21-2016, 10:24 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 01-27-2017, 12:29 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 01-27-2017, 12:44 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 01-27-2017, 03:12 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 01-27-2017, 08:42 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 01-28-2017, 01:02 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 01-28-2017, 02:11 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 02-01-2017, 05:47 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 02-20-2017, 08:20 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 03-08-2017, 01:28 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 03-08-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 03-08-2017, 07:10 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 03-08-2017, 07:23 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 03-10-2017, 01:36 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 03-20-2017, 09:22 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 03-16-2017, 10:34 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 03-17-2017, 02:37 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 03-17-2017, 04:23 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 03-18-2017, 09:17 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 03-19-2017, 01:42 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 04-10-2017, 10:34 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 04-11-2017, 09:54 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 04-11-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 04-24-2017, 01:03 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 04-12-2017, 05:26 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 04-13-2017, 02:02 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 04-26-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 05-04-2017, 02:32 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by urbd - 05-07-2017, 11:42 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by urbd - 05-07-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by urbd - 05-07-2017, 03:40 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 05-09-2017, 11:59 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 05-09-2017, 12:04 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 05-09-2017, 04:54 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 05-10-2017, 04:47 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 05-11-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 05-11-2017, 09:37 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 06-06-2017, 11:53 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 06-06-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 06-06-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 06-07-2017, 03:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 06-09-2017, 11:28 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 06-10-2017, 12:24 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 06-12-2017, 11:06 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 06-15-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 06-15-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 06-15-2017, 02:08 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 07-25-2017, 03:01 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 06-27-2017, 02:10 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 07-11-2017, 04:23 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-12-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-12-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-12-2017, 09:49 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-12-2017, 08:52 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-12-2017, 09:03 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-12-2017, 10:35 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 07-16-2017, 07:28 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SammyOES2 - 07-17-2017, 07:40 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-17-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-17-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 07-18-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 07-26-2017, 11:08 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 07-27-2017, 03:51 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 07-27-2017, 05:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 07-27-2017, 11:18 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 07-28-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 07-31-2017, 12:24 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 08-01-2017, 01:24 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 08-01-2017, 05:01 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 08-01-2017, 05:00 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 08-18-2017, 01:02 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 08-31-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-05-2017, 09:31 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 09-08-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 09-11-2017, 07:26 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-11-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-14-2017, 02:17 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 09-18-2017, 07:19 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-20-2017, 09:32 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-20-2017, 10:30 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-20-2017, 01:49 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-20-2017, 04:58 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-21-2017, 10:25 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-22-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 09-23-2017, 08:59 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 09-24-2017, 09:06 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 10-03-2017, 09:41 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 10-12-2017, 10:00 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 10-14-2017, 06:58 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 10-16-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 10-30-2017, 09:42 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 10-31-2017, 09:18 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 11-13-2017, 10:41 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 11-13-2017, 02:28 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by p2ee - 11-13-2017, 06:14 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 11-15-2017, 11:04 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 11-15-2017, 12:03 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 11-20-2017, 11:02 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 11-23-2017, 04:33 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 11-24-2017, 06:12 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 11-28-2017, 05:13 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 11-29-2017, 11:48 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 12-09-2017, 06:39 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 12-09-2017, 07:59 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 12-12-2017, 12:33 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 12-11-2017, 10:04 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by Ace - 01-08-2018, 10:46 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 01-16-2018, 08:43 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 01-18-2018, 07:48 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 01-18-2018, 10:46 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 01-19-2018, 03:34 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by tvot - 04-17-2018, 11:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 04-27-2018, 08:28 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by urbd - 06-26-2018, 01:46 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by Lens - 07-26-2018, 12:55 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by Lens - 07-26-2018, 08:05 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 07-31-2018, 02:30 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 08-01-2018, 10:22 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 08-11-2018, 06:48 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 08-09-2018, 07:03 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 10-01-2018, 05:53 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 11-24-2018, 10:45 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 12-16-2018, 03:40 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 12-22-2018, 03:48 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by JCnb - 04-11-2019, 12:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 04-19-2019, 12:05 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 05-05-2019, 06:47 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 05-06-2019, 09:17 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 05-08-2019, 09:25 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 07-22-2019, 02:33 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by robd - 07-22-2019, 03:23 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 07-22-2019, 06:49 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 08-18-2019, 08:20 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 09-17-2019, 10:38 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 10-27-2019, 11:37 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 11-14-2019, 06:03 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by embe - 05-26-2020, 02:29 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by kps - 05-12-2020, 03:49 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by KW65 - 08-18-2020, 11:28 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by KW65 - 09-08-2020, 05:50 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 10-24-2020, 04:08 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 12-19-2020, 06:20 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 01-30-2021, 12:56 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 02-19-2021, 02:43 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 02-19-2021, 07:54 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 02-23-2021, 03:41 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 03-02-2021, 01:05 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by WLU - 03-02-2021, 09:23 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 03-03-2021, 10:45 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 04-08-2021, 09:23 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 05-30-2021, 05:33 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 05-30-2021, 07:57 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 05-31-2021, 02:31 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 06-15-2021, 02:47 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-16-2021, 11:46 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 07-20-2021, 11:26 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-27-2021, 12:00 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 08-31-2021, 10:05 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 09-01-2021, 09:54 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 09-01-2021, 01:26 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 09-01-2021, 04:43 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 09-01-2021, 06:26 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 09-28-2021, 08:44 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 10-07-2021, 11:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 11-13-2021, 02:28 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 01-31-2022, 07:40 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 01-31-2022, 10:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 04-08-2022, 05:47 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by robd - 05-05-2022, 03:19 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 05-31-2022, 07:21 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 06-01-2022, 04:50 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 06-02-2022, 10:59 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 06-02-2022, 08:44 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 06-02-2022, 08:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 06-03-2022, 11:00 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-06-2022, 12:53 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-18-2022, 12:53 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-18-2022, 02:30 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 07-19-2022, 03:00 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-19-2022, 06:34 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 07-22-2022, 10:04 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-24-2022, 11:51 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-24-2022, 05:28 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-25-2022, 06:42 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 09-14-2022, 07:25 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 09-15-2022, 05:53 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 09-16-2022, 04:14 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 10-06-2022, 10:18 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 10-08-2022, 06:03 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 11-04-2022, 12:22 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 11-27-2022, 09:54 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 01-12-2023, 06:04 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 02-08-2023, 11:44 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 02-08-2023, 08:31 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 02-08-2023, 10:36 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 02-09-2023, 12:09 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 02-10-2023, 04:01 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 02-13-2023, 11:36 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 03-01-2023, 12:50 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 03-01-2023, 03:49 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 04-20-2023, 09:26 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 04-20-2023, 10:17 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 04-20-2023, 02:13 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 04-20-2023, 04:26 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 04-29-2023, 06:06 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 05-02-2023, 09:02 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 05-02-2023, 12:13 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 05-03-2023, 09:10 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by SF22 - 05-17-2023, 02:37 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-28-2023, 04:54 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 07-29-2023, 12:04 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by nms - 08-03-2023, 03:10 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 08-08-2023, 10:13 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by timc - 08-09-2023, 11:17 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 12-30-2023, 01:31 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 12-31-2023, 07:01 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by plam - 12-31-2023, 09:54 PM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 01-04-2024, 11:28 AM
RE: General Road and Highway Discussion - by ac3r - 01-13-2024, 03:23 PM

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