General Road and Highway Discussion

[danbrotherston]

Every time I drive that stretch of Victoria I wonder the same thing. It's pointless, ugly, and makes crossings even bigger. I've provided feedback as such (while complaining about the tax waste of extra lanes, I hear they love that).

Heh, yes, I also included that question...our tax dollars are being wasted, if our safety and health isn't enough. But I think the problem is different from that...it's a bureaucratic problem. Nobody on council particularly disagrees with the point (or at least, only a minority do), so why is it not being done? Well, these decisions aren't really made by council, they're made by staff. So I also pushed council to also consider why this road is not being managed in line with the moving forward 2020 plan, which, mediocre though it may be, does call for road diets in select places.

[plam]

I wonder if having 4 lanes now makes a future LRT on Victoria easier. Probably not. Anyway I do appreciate the segregated cycle lanes on both sides of Victoria that are in the designs.

[danbrotherston]

I wonder if having 4 lanes now makes a future LRT on Victoria easier. Probably not. Anyway I do appreciate the segregated cycle lanes on both sides of Victoria that are in the designs.

That section of Victoria? No, I don't think so. It will never get an LRT so long as the other section is only 2 lanes wide. They won't even run an iXpress bus down the road.

My guess is that staff just don't even think about it. The concept of narrowing a road is alien to most regional engineers. I'm guessing that unless they are instructed by superiors to do this--to them--bizarre and unusual thing, they won't even consider it.

But that's just me desperately trying to fit Hanlon's razor into this....because the alternative....and I do consider this malice, is that regional staff haven't actually given up on widening Victoria St to 4 lanes the whole way. While they claim to believe that such a project will never actually be done, maybe they still secretly believe they'll one day be allowed to plow 3 more lanes through a whole bunch of living rooms.

That being said, in that case, they're still short sighted and...bluntly....stupid. This isn't going to be a project in the 10 year timeframe, maybe 25-30 years, and by then, the incremental cost of re-widening that section of Victoria, will be tiny compared with the cost of acquiring a few dozen homes and front yards and cutting of century old trees.

In either case, the result remains the same, waste of lives, waste of money.

[Acitta]

Proposed Victoria Street improvements in Kitchener ‘optimize’ active transportation design 
The region wants to hear what people think about proposed upgrades to Victoria Street, from Fischer-Hallman Road to Lawrence Avenue in Kitchener – a 1.4 kilometre stretch that’s in poor condition and slated for reconstruction starting next year.

[danbrotherston]

FWIW...I emailed the staff and regional council on this issue. I got replies from two councillors, (Mayor McCabe and Councillor Williams).

Not surprised, but unimpressed (except with those two).

[bravado]

FWIW...I emailed the staff and regional council on this issue. I got replies from two councillors, (Mayor McCabe and Councillor Williams).

Not surprised, but unimpressed (except with those two).

Oh wow you guys are getting responses? Wild

[danbrotherston]

FWIW...I emailed the staff and regional council on this issue. I got replies from two councillors, (Mayor McCabe and Councillor Williams).

Not surprised, but unimpressed (except with those two).

Oh wow you guys are getting responses? Wild

I mean, I expected at least and acknowledgement from staff.

[SF22]

I wonder if having 4 lanes now makes a future LRT on Victoria easier. Probably not. Anyway I do appreciate the segregated cycle lanes on both sides of Victoria that are in the designs.

That section of Victoria? No, I don't think so. It will never get an LRT so long as the other section is only 2 lanes wide. They won't even run an iXpress bus down the road.

My guess is that staff just don't even think about it. The concept of narrowing a road is alien to most regional engineers. I'm guessing that unless they are instructed by superiors to do this--to them--bizarre and unusual thing, they won't even consider it.

But that's just me desperately trying to fit Hanlon's razor into this....because the alternative....and I do consider this malice, is that regional staff haven't actually given up on widening Victoria St to 4 lanes the whole way. While they claim to believe that such a project will never actually be done, maybe they still secretly believe they'll one day be allowed to plow 3 more lanes through a whole bunch of living rooms.

That being said, in that case, they're still short sighted and...bluntly....stupid. This isn't going to be a project in the 10 year timeframe, maybe 25-30 years, and by then, the incremental cost of re-widening that section of Victoria, will be tiny compared with the cost of acquiring a few dozen homes and front yards and cutting of century old trees.

In either case, the result remains the same, waste of lives, waste of money.

Okay, but WHAT IF instead of widening Victoria to make space for the LRT where there's only two lanes, we tunnel the LRT for that section between Walnut and Lawrence??

[ac3r]

It would be nice, but I doubt they'd be willing to spend the money to do that.

But isn't Ottawa the preferred street to use for a third line anyways?

[SF22]

It would be nice, but I doubt they'd be willing to spend the money to do that.

But isn't Ottawa the preferred street to use for a third line anyways?

I believe that Ottawa and Victoria/Highland are both earmarked as possible places for a future LRT line (I can't remember which official document shows this, but it's definitely been mapped out before), but Ottawa has the benefit of being able to extend across the Grand River to connect to Breslau and the proposed future GO station that's meant to go there, since Ottawa St has been left open-ended on the Kitchener side with the intention that they'll make a new bridge connection here someday. I think the only other road noted for an LRT line is the King/University combo that connects Conestoga Mall down King, and then onto University to go past both Laurier and UW, then out towards Ira Needles.

[ZEBuilder]

It would be nice, but I doubt they'd be willing to spend the money to do that.

But isn't Ottawa the preferred street to use for a third line anyways?

Ottawa St is the preferred street for a third line, Victoria/Highland and University were all potential options but the Region has already laid ground work for Ottawa St in ROPA 6 by denoting it as a "Regional Intensification Corridor".

From ROPA 6 section 2.D.3.5,

"As part of the next update to the Region’s Transportation Master Plan, the Region, in collaboration with the area municipalities, will examine the potential for establishing a new ION rapid transit route along the east-west Regional Intensification Corridor shown on Map 2 that would: (i) provide a direct link from the Region’s transit system to the Region of Waterloo International Airport; and (ii) serve as a key transit corridor connecting the west side of the City of Kitchener to the East Side Lands Employment Area in the Township of Woolwich, and City of Cambridge via the Fountain Street corridor."

There is more in ROPA 6 section 2.D.3 that talks about the Regional Intensification Corridor's but it all effectively wants Ottawa St to be the next LRT corridor without explicitly stating that.

[SF22]

Oh, here's something from Engage WR with a map of 'proposed regional intensification corridors' https://www.engagewr.ca/regional-officia...-corridors

EDIT: Also, a screenshot from p92 of the Amendment to the Regional Official Plan (Aug 2022), which clearly shows Ottawa St marked out for higher-order transit, including an extension over the Grand to Breslau GO, although they don't specifically name the LRT.

   

[ZEBuilder]

Oh, here's something from Engage WR with a map of 'proposed regional intensification corridors' https://www.engagewr.ca/regional-officia...-corridors

EDIT: Also, a screenshot from p92 of the Amendment to the Regional Official Plan (Aug 2022), which clearly shows Ottawa St marked out for higher-order transit, including an extension over the Grand to Breslau GO, although they don't specifically name the LRT.

Logistically BRT would be a pain to have in the central section of Ottawa (Strasburg to King) because it's so narrow so you'd have to expropriate an entire side of the street, you'd also have to find a way to get through the roundabouts at Alpine and Homer Watson certainly a lane could be taken away from cars but those roundabouts certainly don't need a reduction in capacity.

An LRT would still have the issue of getting through that central section but it could at least utilize the existing track on Ottawa/Borden, the only difficult part would be where and how to locate a transfer station between the lines, utilizing Mill as a transfer station is certainly the most feasible since the track could realistically run elevated from the Laurentian Center through the roundabouts and then drop down along Ardelt which would then allow the trains to interline with the existing track, the King St end would be more difficult to figure out however.

[SF22]

Oh, here's something from Engage WR with a map of 'proposed regional intensification corridors' https://www.engagewr.ca/regional-officia...-corridors

EDIT: Also, a screenshot from p92 of the Amendment to the Regional Official Plan (Aug 2022), which clearly shows Ottawa St marked out for higher-order transit, including an extension over the Grand to Breslau GO, although they don't specifically name the LRT.

Logistically BRT would be a pain to have in the central section of Ottawa (Strasburg to King) because it's so narrow so you'd have to expropriate an entire side of the street, you'd also have to find a way to get through the roundabouts at Alpine and Homer Watson certainly a lane could be taken away from cars but those roundabouts certainly don't need a reduction in capacity.

An LRT would still have the issue of getting through that central section but it could at least utilize the existing track on Ottawa/Borden, the only difficult part would be where and how to locate a transfer station between the lines, utilizing Mill as a transfer station is certainly the most feasible since the track could realistically run elevated from the Laurentian Center through the roundabouts and then drop down along Ardelt which would then allow the trains to interline with the existing track, the King St end would be more difficult to figure out however.

Seems likely that they'd elevate the line, much like the plan to elevate Phase 2 over the King/Fountain intersection to avoid jamming it up further. I think if it's done successfully in Cambridge (there's like 3 or 4 points along the proposed line that will see elevation to minimize traffic strain), then it's way more likely that we'll see it get used again along Ottawa St.

Or maybe they'll just cut the LRT right through the middle like they're planning to do at the Beverley/Dundas roundabout, who could say.

[tomh009]

Okay, but WHAT IF instead of widening Victoria to make space for the LRT where there's only two lanes, we tunnel the LRT for that section between Walnut and Lawrence??

Hmmmm ... if you just did it as an open cut (rather than tunneling), with no underground stations, that might not be ridiculously expensive!