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General Road and Highway Discussion
(01-15-2019, 12:46 PM)KevinT Wrote: And yet as an avid fan of the TV show Mayday, I can recall numerous instances where police took the lead in an investigation causing critical data that could have resulted in a proper understanding of all root causes of an accident to be lost.  Personally I go with that whole "the needs of the many" argument, and would much rather see a proper investigation that results in improved safety for all rather than a narrow legal success that results in punitive damages against a limited number of parties.

This is a good point which few people seem to agree with.

Criminal investigations are almost certainly less important in this situation that a incident investigation.
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(01-15-2019, 12:40 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 11:55 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I agree the lack of mandate is a problem, and the TSB should investigate at least all commercial transport crashes, if not all private MVCs (they already have the authority to investigate non-commercial private plane crashes, train crashes, etc.).

I'm not sure why you think I'm missing the point.  More than one entity can investigate at the same time.  In fact, the police will sometimes investigate plane crashes and other incidents as well, for example, in the case of terrorism.  The police investigate, track down, and the crown prosecutes the offenders.  But it's the TSB which could say suggest different screening methods to catch them before this happens, or changes to plane design and protocol to mitigate danger and reduce harm.  They work together, they are not opposed, and they have different roles.  "After a trial" which would be YEARS later is far far too late for an investigation, most of the evidence would be lost by then.  And the TSB is generally not going to leak data that the police don't want leaked (they already work with them on plane crashes).
It isn't that easy. There has to be a lead investigator that assume control, if there is any belief of criminality, then police must take the lead.  Dual agency investigations lead to a host of issues during judicial proceedings.  To safe guard the integrity of an investigation that is looking through the lens of criminal behavior severely complicates things and non police agencies need to take a back seat.  In the case of terrorism, there is a whole other set of rules that kick in under acts of parliament that I am not able to discuss, but Federal authorities (Police) again assume the lead role.  While I agree with you that there can be a level of cooperation with other "topic expert" agencies, and it may seem to be to late, it is the reality of our process and system.  e.g. If there is a fire that is suspected arson, then the Fire marshal will work with the police however, the scene is the control of police. They have the lead and write any required warrants. The Fire Marshal will only be allowed entry into the scene with police (FIS) and for the purpose of looking for evidence of how a fire was started.  Ultimately if Fire Marshall said that fire was accidental, then the investigation would be complete.  But, if they determine it is a set fire, it remains in carriage of the police... This is just the tip of the iceberg, but I think you can see there are a lot of things that the public is unaware of with the process.

"It's our process" should never be an excuse for keeping a broken system.

And it isn't our process here, our process is that the TSP don't have the authority to investigate, it does not say that the Ottawa transportation has to turn down their offer.
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(01-15-2019, 01:02 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(01-15-2019, 12:40 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: It isn't that easy. There has to be a lead investigator that assume control, if there is any belief of criminality, then police must take the lead.  Dual agency investigations lead to a host of issues during judicial proceedings.  To safe guard the integrity of an investigation that is looking through the lens of criminal behavior severely complicates things and non police agencies need to take a back seat.  In the case of terrorism, there is a whole other set of rules that kick in under acts of parliament that I am not able to discuss, but Federal authorities (Police) again assume the lead role.  While I agree with you that there can be a level of cooperation with other "topic expert" agencies, and it may seem to be to late, it is the reality of our process and system.  e.g. If there is a fire that is suspected arson, then the Fire marshal will work with the police however, the scene is the control of police. They have the lead and write any required warrants. The Fire Marshal will only be allowed entry into the scene with police (FIS) and for the purpose of looking for evidence of how a fire was started.  Ultimately if Fire Marshall said that fire was accidental, then the investigation would be complete.  But, if they determine it is a set fire, it remains in carriage of the police... This is just the tip of the iceberg, but I think you can see there are a lot of things that the public is unaware of with the process.

"It's our process" should never be an excuse for keeping a broken system.

And it isn't our process here, our process is that the TSP don't have the authority to investigate, it does not say that the Ottawa transportation has to turn down their offer.
My final comment on this subject which you seem to be very knowledgeable on.  I have offered you some very high level background on why it isn't as straightforward as you think.  An investigation has to be held to a high standard.  Tell the S.C.C. that has set all the case law that the "system" is broke.  I encourage it, trust me.....
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(01-15-2019, 12:46 PM)KevinT Wrote: And yet as an avid fan of the TV show Mayday, I can recall numerous instances where police took the lead in an investigation causing critical data that could have resulted in a proper understanding of all root causes of an accident to be lost.  Personally I go with that whole "the needs of the many" argument, and would much rather see a proper investigation that results in improved safety for all rather than a narrow legal success that results in punitive damages against a limited number of parties.

I watch Mayday too and enjoy the show.  Many of those investigations are dated and are from countries that don't practice the same Major Case Management principals that are strictly adhered to here in Canada.
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If you're implying third world, note that one of those countries is France, and recently (Concorde).
...K
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This just in:

CBC News, TSB to join investigation into fatal Ottawa bus crash

Quote:The TSB will provide "technical expertise with respect to safety matters relating to this collision," and will have no role in assigning either criminal or civil fault, Chief Charles Bordeleau said at a news conference Wednesday afternoon.

Bordeleau said Ottawa police made a "formal request" for the federal agency's help.

"Our officers do amazing work. They're experts in their field. But there are certain things that the TSB does have access to ... that will help us find all the answers that we are looking for," he said.
...K
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@KevinT Thanks for the information! I didn't catch that.

I think that is good news, and interesting that its OPS making the formal request...given that City of Ottawa Transportation staff said that they thought police could handle it, and asking for TSB help would make police look bad...
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(01-16-2019, 07:28 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I think that is good news, and interesting that its OPS making the formal request...given that City of Ottawa Transportation staff said that they thought police could handle it, and asking for TSB help would make police look bad...

100% agreed, I think it's the best possible course.
...K
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Absolutely horrible crash on 401 yesterday. Sad It happened while I was out of town and had 401 closed for many hours; when I returned home late in the evening, my stomach churned as I saw the completely compressed crash barrier at the split to 8 from 401 WB. Sad

I drive through here every day... my heart goes out to those involved.

https://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/male-65-kil...-1.4269138

For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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Sooner or later something like this was bound to happen as people attempt to merge late into the temporarily short offramps. I got overly ambitious a few weeks ago in trying to pass some trucks on the hill and found myself with the decision to cut in late or continue on to Homer Watson. Needless to say, I chose safety and arrived home later than planned that evening.
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In lieu of actual changes to road design to improve safety, the region has launched a road safety education campaign.

https://www.regionofwaterloo.ca/Modules/...fe1674e1da

Mike Boos looks deep into it in this thread:



There are some pretty serious flaws, for example, road safety measures are not a goal of the program.
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Saw this article awhile ago, will post the link. I thought the Ottawa Street from the Highway to Weber construction would be on this list. https://www.therecord.com/news-story/923...tm_content=
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Oh, the River Road extension is finally here!? Is this year the start of the rest of the scope of the project, or is this just Phase 2 of X, or something?
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Glad to see that the Queen St project is confirmed for this summer.
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Highland's been pushed to 2020/2021 with utility relocations happening this year as per the Feb 19th Planning and Works meeting.

Detailed Design Completion Spring / Summer 2019
Pre-Construction Utility Relocations Summer / Fall 2019
Tender Advertisement Winter 2019
Construction Spring 2020 to Fall 2021
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