High-Speed Rail (HSR) - Toronto/Pearson/Kitchener/London

[Square]

I had the same thought.  During the election, I thought why should I vote for the Liberals, when she had 4 years to start doing something, but all her government did was more environmental assessments that was done in the last 40 years.

No, only studies were don on the past on HSR, not EAs or TPAs.  Since an EA/TPA is required before construction, the Wynne Liberals were the only government to actually start moving forwards concretely.

Also, the were the only government that succeeded in getting CN to come to the table and start bargaining for away around the Bramalea bottleneck which would have been a must for HSR. They were at the point where a route had been chosen and CN was testing and studying to see if their signalling equipment would work in a hydro corridor and they were reputedly going to say yes.

I didn't vote for the Liberals, either, but I think it's clear that they did not than any previous government on this particular issue.

Thank you for the explanation.

[ijmorlan]

Also, the were the only government that succeeded in getting CN to come to the table and start bargaining for away around the Bramalea bottleneck which would have been a must for HSR. They were at the point where a route had been chosen and CN was testing and studying to see if their signalling equipment would work in a hydro corridor and they were reputedly going to say yes.

I didn't vote for the Liberals, either, but I think it's clear that they did not than any previous government on this particular issue.

Thanks for this background and reminder. Still disappointing that more wasn’t done, but it’s not true to say that nothing happened.

[timc]

Too bad Wynn didn't just start building it back then. I feel like if it just got started it had a chance to get done even under a new Government.

A lot of the LRT funding came from the province right...if that did not happen when it did, oh man...we would be like what is happening in Hamilton right now No?

The current government has already established a willingness to cancel projects, no matter what the cost. Why not HSR too?

[ac3r]

High speed rail is back on the menu, which will surely get 86'd as it always does: https://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/tr/new...d-not.html

[nms]

High speed rail is back on the menu, which will surely get 86'd as it always does: https://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/tr/new...d-not.html

Could we ever hope for a Brightline North? If it can be demonstrated that privately owned passenger service can make a profit, maybe we can even convince CP and CN to get back in the game (or at least make their tracks available)... I can dream can't I?

I know that part of the challenges is that VIA and Metrolinx believe that they are fighting over the same market share and absolutely refuse to find a middle ground. (If this covered in the article, I apologize.  I can't get into the article even though I subscribe to the Star)

I couldn't help thinking with reports of Pearson limiting flights during peak times what would happen if some of the domestic trips were shifted to high speed rail.  Yes, we're never going to have a 4-hour train trip to Calgary (or Winnipeg for that matter), but if there was a way to eliminate the hourly flights from Pearson to Montreal (and equivalent jumps), that would definitely ease up on some of the pressure at Pearson.

[plam]

High speed rail is back on the menu, which will surely get 86'd as it always does: https://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/tr/new...d-not.html

Could we ever hope for a Brightline North? If it can be demonstrated that privately owned passenger service can make a profit, maybe we can even convince CP and CN to get back in the game (or at least make their tracks available)... I can dream can't I?

I know that part of the challenges is that VIA and Metrolinx believe that they are fighting over the same market share and absolutely refuse to find a middle ground. (If this covered in the article, I apologize.  I can't get into the article even though I subscribe to the Star)

I couldn't help thinking with reports of Pearson limiting flights during peak times what would happen if some of the domestic trips were shifted to high speed rail.  Yes, we're never going to have a 4-hour train trip to Calgary (or Winnipeg for that matter), but if there was a way to eliminate the hourly flights from Pearson to Montreal (and equivalent jumps), that would definitely ease up on some of the pressure at Pearson.

Private rail somehow makes a profit in Japan, but not here. The context is pretty different I guess.

There is so much capacity on the Montreal-Toronto route and so many flights (though also a bunch of flights from City Centre). VIA doesn't come even close.

[danbrotherston]

Could we ever hope for a Brightline North? If it can be demonstrated that privately owned passenger service can make a profit, maybe we can even convince CP and CN to get back in the game (or at least make their tracks available)... I can dream can't I?

I know that part of the challenges is that VIA and Metrolinx believe that they are fighting over the same market share and absolutely refuse to find a middle ground. (If this covered in the article, I apologize.  I can't get into the article even though I subscribe to the Star)

I couldn't help thinking with reports of Pearson limiting flights during peak times what would happen if some of the domestic trips were shifted to high speed rail.  Yes, we're never going to have a 4-hour train trip to Calgary (or Winnipeg for that matter), but if there was a way to eliminate the hourly flights from Pearson to Montreal (and equivalent jumps), that would definitely ease up on some of the pressure at Pearson.

Private rail somehow makes a profit in Japan, but not here. The context is pretty different I guess.

There is so much capacity on the Montreal-Toronto route and so many flights (though also a bunch of flights from City Centre). VIA doesn't come even close.

I think the point is though, that they could come close, because the cities are the right distance away from each other that an HSR could replace the flights. Ottawa flights too FWIW.

The flights aren't actually that high capacity, these aren't big airplanes, and trains can be huge.

This, incidentally is why I don't think investing in our airport is a good idea. The idea is that "Pearson is full" but the fact it, Pearson is wildly inefficient. There's massive headroom if the airport is improved.

As an aside rant...I hate Pearson, it's a terrible airport...I don't know why we got stuck with such nonsense. Schiphol has no end of problems here, but I've had nothing but smooth experiences in it.

[ac3r]

High speed rail is back on the menu, which will surely get 86'd as it always does: https://www.niagarafallsreview.ca/tr/new...d-not.html

Could we ever hope for a Brightline North? If it can be demonstrated that privately owned passenger service can make a profit, maybe we can even convince CP and CN to get back in the game (or at least make their tracks available)... I can dream can't I?

I know that part of the challenges is that VIA and Metrolinx believe that they are fighting over the same market share and absolutely refuse to find a middle ground. (If this covered in the article, I apologize.  I can't get into the article even though I subscribe to the Star)

I couldn't help thinking with reports of Pearson limiting flights during peak times what would happen if some of the domestic trips were shifted to high speed rail.  Yes, we're never going to have a 4-hour train trip to Calgary (or Winnipeg for that matter), but if there was a way to eliminate the hourly flights from Pearson to Montreal (and equivalent jumps), that would definitely ease up on some of the pressure at Pearson.

Off topic somewhat, but Brightline might not be the best example. They're infamous for getting into train wrecks lol. 60+ people have died and collisions with cars are soooo frequent. It's basically a weekly thing now, even multiple times a week. It has the most incidents per mile in the entirety of the United States. Most are reportedly suicides or just morons who think they can beat the train before it gets to a crossing.

YouTube has a ton of videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_q...line+crash

[Acitta]

Could we ever hope for a Brightline North? If it can be demonstrated that privately owned passenger service can make a profit, maybe we can even convince CP and CN to get back in the game (or at least make their tracks available)... I can dream can't I?

I know that part of the challenges is that VIA and Metrolinx believe that they are fighting over the same market share and absolutely refuse to find a middle ground. (If this covered in the article, I apologize.  I can't get into the article even though I subscribe to the Star)

I couldn't help thinking with reports of Pearson limiting flights during peak times what would happen if some of the domestic trips were shifted to high speed rail.  Yes, we're never going to have a 4-hour train trip to Calgary (or Winnipeg for that matter), but if there was a way to eliminate the hourly flights from Pearson to Montreal (and equivalent jumps), that would definitely ease up on some of the pressure at Pearson.

Off topic somewhat, but Brightline might not be the best example. They're infamous for getting into train wrecks lol. 60+ people have died and collisions with cars are soooo frequent. It's basically a weekly thing now, even multiple times a week. It has the most incidents per mile in the entirety of the United States. Most are reportedly suicides or just morons who think they can beat the train before it gets to a crossing.

YouTube has a ton of videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_q...line+crash

They built a high speed rail line with level crossings. What did they expect?

[dtkvictim]

Could we ever hope for a Brightline North? If it can be demonstrated that privately owned passenger service can make a profit, maybe we can even convince CP and CN to get back in the game (or at least make their tracks available)... I can dream can't I?

I know that part of the challenges is that VIA and Metrolinx believe that they are fighting over the same market share and absolutely refuse to find a middle ground. (If this covered in the article, I apologize.  I can't get into the article even though I subscribe to the Star)

I couldn't help thinking with reports of Pearson limiting flights during peak times what would happen if some of the domestic trips were shifted to high speed rail.  Yes, we're never going to have a 4-hour train trip to Calgary (or Winnipeg for that matter), but if there was a way to eliminate the hourly flights from Pearson to Montreal (and equivalent jumps), that would definitely ease up on some of the pressure at Pearson.

Private rail somehow makes a profit in Japan, but not here. The context is pretty different I guess.

There is so much capacity on the Montreal-Toronto route and so many flights (though also a bunch of flights from City Centre). VIA doesn't come even close.

The context is pretty different, but I think it's mostly in land usage patterns. The rail companies there usually own huge amounts of land surrounding their stations, and make a lot of their money by having their rail lines drive consumers to their real estate investments (many major stations there are basically just malls). As I understand it, early North American rail companies used to follow this strategy as well, but don't seem to anymore.

Also IIRC, some private company saw potential profit in a HSR line between Calgary-Edmonton, so we'll see if that ever happens.

[danbrotherston]

Off topic somewhat, but Brightline might not be the best example. They're infamous for getting into train wrecks lol. 60+ people have died and collisions with cars are soooo frequent. It's basically a weekly thing now, even multiple times a week. It has the most incidents per mile in the entirety of the United States. Most are reportedly suicides or just morons who think they can beat the train before it gets to a crossing.

YouTube has a ton of videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_q...line+crash

They built a high speed rail line with level crossings. What did they expect?

FWIW...level crossings could be made safer...look at British designs, which nearly completely gate off the roadway. I.e., you cannot run the barrier without literally crashing your car. (Not that such a restriction would stop everyone mind you).

But I think there must be something else at play here, Brightline does worse than average even for US standards? I don't know what it is...I hesitate to suggest something crazy like, the water Florida makes people bad drivers, but I get the sense that there is something going on here.

[ac3r]

Off topic somewhat, but Brightline might not be the best example. They're infamous for getting into train wrecks lol. 60+ people have died and collisions with cars are soooo frequent. It's basically a weekly thing now, even multiple times a week. It has the most incidents per mile in the entirety of the United States. Most are reportedly suicides or just morons who think they can beat the train before it gets to a crossing.

YouTube has a ton of videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_q...line+crash

They built a high speed rail line with level crossings. What did they expect?

Reminds me of a certain LRT.

Also yeah, copying British crossings is a good idea. Those steel gates are way better than the flexible arms we use in North America. I know we designed our flexible arms to be fragile to permit someone who may be on the tracks after they go down the ability to drive through to safety, but then that doesn't really solve the issue of them offering an opportune chance to try and zig zag around them to attempt to beat the train. British style gates seem like they'd be much better and preventing such attempts and it's not as if a car couldn't drive through them if needed. The average car has about 200 horsepower which is more than sufficient to smash through such a gate if needed.

I wonder if the use of quiet zones also contributes to crashes, though. Trains travelling in urban areas between 130-180 km/h, crossing countless level crossings but not using horns to warn people just seems like a bad idea. Gates aren't a solution on their own. While horns are certainly very loud and I imagine the constant blaring of them in residential areas would become quite a nuisance and potential health issue, they give vehicles and pedestrians an additional safety warning: the louder the horn is, the closer the train is to the crossing and that should help tell people to GTFO the way.

They are attempting to improve crossings, at least, although the solutions proposed hardly seem adequate. I mean, flexible bollard poles and bright yellow strips? How about a gate people can't drive through?

None of this is surprising, though. It's a private company, it's the USA and it's situated in Florida, no less. Any HSR in Canada I would hope will be fully grade separated and operated as a crown agency (I'd hope). If we're to invest in this, then we need to do it right in the first place.

[Acitta]

They built a high speed rail line with level crossings. What did they expect?

Reminds me of a certain LRT.

The LRT is not going 130 km/h. The train took a long time to stop in the posted video.

[timc]

Time to dust this off again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W32klYkTxCQ

[tomh009]

As an aside rant...I hate Pearson, it's a terrible airport...I don't know why we got stuck with such nonsense. Schiphol has no end of problems here, but I've had nothing but smooth experiences in it.

And as an aside response, I don't hate Pearson, it's better than many other airports that I have traveled through, and especially many US ones.

YYZ is busy, and it can get crowded, but the T1 redesign dates to well before COVID, and T3 is from before the 9/11 attacks and subsequent security clampdown. Check-ins are slower now, security is slower now, boarding is slower now, immigration and customs are slower now -- and all of those contribute to increased congestion.