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King-Victoria Transit Hub
(11-06-2018, 09:36 PM)ijmorlan Wrote:
(11-06-2018, 04:49 PM)Pheidippides Wrote: And yet those same employees outsmarted all the developers in quietly assembling all parcels needed. The developers are probably just upset they did not buy the properties first.

That is a good point which should never be forgotten. We often complain, usually justifiably, about ham-handed work by Regional staff. But in the case of buying up the transit terminal lands, they, and Council, did a great job — bought all but one parcel on the sly, and assembled it with no fuss, publicity, or scandal. Not an easy task!

They bought and assembles the land before anyone wanted to spend money in Kitchener.  They did have the added advantage of having the vision and where.  I really think they are in over their heads.  The proof is in the pudding with the actual LRT results.  Nothing to be proud of...
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(11-06-2018, 11:04 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote:
(11-06-2018, 09:36 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: That is a good point which should never be forgotten. We often complain, usually justifiably, about ham-handed work by Regional staff. But in the case of buying up the transit terminal lands, they, and Council, did a great job — bought all but one parcel on the sly, and assembled it with no fuss, publicity, or scandal. Not an easy task!

They bought and assembles the land before anyone wanted to spend money in Kitchener.  They did have the added advantage of having the vision and where.  I really think they are in over their heads.  The proof is in the pudding with the actual LRT results.  Nothing to be proud of...

In other words, they were ahead of the curve. They realized they needed the land before developers realized. Which actually is pretty weird. I remember thinking many years ago (before LRT was a serious proposal) that the transit terminal should be there. If I had had a few $million burning a hole in my pocket I may well have hired a real estate agent to work on buying some of that land at that time, when it probably could have been had for peanuts.
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(11-06-2018, 11:04 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: They bought and assembles the land before anyone wanted to spend money in Kitchener.  They did have the added advantage of having the vision and where.  I really think they are in over their heads.  The proof is in the pudding with the actual LRT results. 

The regional staff that worked on this are not the same staff that have managed the LRT project. And I think you are being rather harsh blaming the region for the LRT, but we all have the right to our opinions.

That said, I should hope that there is no proof inside a pudding. Rather, the proof of the pudding should be in the eating.
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(11-07-2018, 01:36 AM)tomh009 Wrote:
(11-06-2018, 11:04 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: They bought and assembles the land before anyone wanted to spend money in Kitchener.  They did have the added advantage of having the vision and where.  I really think they are in over their heads.  The proof is in the pudding with the actual LRT results. 

The regional staff that worked on this are not the same staff that have managed the LRT project. And I think you are being rather harsh blaming the region for the LRT, but we all have the right to our opinions.

That said, I should hope that there is no proof inside a pudding. Rather, the proof of the pudding should be in the eating.

I think it is ok to be critical of the region.  Who else do I hold accountable ?  I think this is one of the rare cases where they should actually bring in a consultant who is an expert in this kind of development.  Good leadership and stewardship of the public resources should recognize that you cant be an expert in all areas.  Sometimes you have to bring an expert in and pay them.  

I am delighted that the previous counsel had a vision and  massed the land required to develop the vision. I am give them the full credit for it.  What I am not confident in is if they have the resources on staff to deal with this kind of major development.  It isn't a slight, it is an observation. 

No on the pudding, I am not a big desert guy but, I will take rice pudding !!
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(11-06-2018, 04:18 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: I honestly think the scope of this project might be too big for our Regional employees to handle. I dont have a lot of confidence in them pulling this off properly.

(11-06-2018, 11:04 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: They bought and assembles the land before anyone wanted to spend money in Kitchener.  They did have the added advantage of having the vision and where.  I really think they are in over their heads.  The proof is in the pudding with the actual LRT results.  Nothing to be proud of...

So basically you are criticizing them for:
1) Standing firm to get a good deal for the region, and
2) Thinking ahead and having a vision rather than not having transit hub at all or having to over-pay a developer to get the land or access later to build the transit hub.

The signs that Kitchener was starting to move in the right direction were already there at the time of the purchases (e.g school of pharmacy).
Everyone move to the back of the bus and we all get home faster.
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(11-07-2018, 09:12 AM)Pheidippides Wrote:
(11-06-2018, 04:18 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: I honestly think the scope of this project might be too big for our Regional employees to handle. I dont have a lot of confidence in them pulling this off properly.

(11-06-2018, 11:04 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: They bought and assembles the land before anyone wanted to spend money in Kitchener.  They did have the added advantage of having the vision and where.  I really think they are in over their heads.  The proof is in the pudding with the actual LRT results.  Nothing to be proud of...

So basically you are criticizing them for:
1) Standing firm to get a good deal for the region, and
2) Thinking ahead and having a vision rather than not having transit hub at all or having to over-pay a developer to get the land or access later to build the transit hub.

The signs that Kitchener was starting to move in the right direction were already there at the time of the purchases (e.g school of pharmacy).

Um  did you read what I said ?  Where do you get draw those conclusions ?

In any event,  my thoughts.  Just like you have yours !!
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(11-07-2018, 09:12 AM)Pheidippides Wrote:
(11-06-2018, 04:18 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: I honestly think the scope of this project might be too big for our Regional employees to handle. I dont have a lot of confidence in them pulling this off properly.

(11-06-2018, 11:04 PM)Rainrider22 Wrote: They bought and assembles the land before anyone wanted to spend money in Kitchener.  They did have the added advantage of having the vision and where.  I really think they are in over their heads.  The proof is in the pudding with the actual LRT results.  Nothing to be proud of...

So basically you are criticizing them for:
1) Standing firm to get a good deal for the region, and
2) Thinking ahead and having a vision rather than not having transit hub at all or having to over-pay a developer to get the land or access later to build the transit hub.

The signs that Kitchener was starting to move in the right direction were already there at the time of the purchases (e.g school of pharmacy).

This is where I'm at on this.  I'm annoyed that this is going to be delayed.  VERY annoyed.  But if it means getting it done right, I'm ok waiting (coming from the most impatient person in the world)

That said, I think we don't know all of the details.  What exactly is the vision, and what parts are non-negotiable?  What part of the vision was not met?  Those are important factors.
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(11-07-2018, 10:26 AM)Spokes Wrote:
(11-07-2018, 09:12 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: So basically you are criticizing them for:
1) Standing firm to get a good deal for the region, and
2) Thinking ahead and having a vision rather than not having transit hub at all or having to over-pay a developer to get the land or access later to build the transit hub.

The signs that Kitchener was starting to move in the right direction were already there at the time of the purchases (e.g school of pharmacy).

This is where I'm at on this.  I'm annoyed that this is going to be delayed.  VERY annoyed.  But if it means getting it done right, I'm ok waiting (coming from the most impatient person in the world)

That said, I think we don't know all of the details.  What exactly is the vision, and what parts are non-negotiable?  What part of the vision was not met?  Those are important factors.
Agreed.  It would be nice if they would tell us exactly what the deficiencies were.
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From The Record's article:  

Quote:"We just couldn't negotiate a satisfactory deal," Galloway said.

That included both the design of the site, along with the land value.

"They weren't valuing it sufficiently for us," Galloway said.
https://www.therecord.com/news-story/901...ping-kvth/


Does the developer have to buy the land from the Region?  Could that be a hurdle.
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Last year I was daydreaming and came up with a concept for these lands that I spent some hours sketching. Then I saw and read (skimmed) the design guidelines from the region and thought my concept actually fit fairly well considering I hadn't read it first. Anyway, now that the most recent proposal for these lands fell through I remembered my sketches and pulled them out. I still like them. Since they're just going to rot in my sketchbook, why not post them here for people to comment on eh?

P.S. I've been reading here for years but this is my first post!
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Here's my sketches

[attachment=5772]

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last 2

[attachment=5777]

[attachment=5778]
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(11-13-2018, 09:07 AM)mastermind Wrote: Last year I was daydreaming and came up with a concept for these lands that I spent some hours sketching.  Then I saw and read (skimmed) the design guidelines from the region and thought my concept actually fit fairly well considering I hadn't read it first.  Anyway, now that the most recent proposal for these lands fell through I remembered my sketches and pulled them out.  I still like them.  Since they're just going to rot in my sketchbook, why not post them here for people to comment on eh?

P.S. I've been reading here for years but this is my first post!

I love when lurkers pop out of the woodwork with something awesome!

Great drawings, and cool ideas.  I wish we knew what the Region wanted.  Do they want something like this, or do they want something with retail right on the street.  What kind of heritage integration.  How much residential/office/hotel/etc?  

So many questions.
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Very nice work, mastermind!

@Spokes, there could be some retail storefronts on the King St side, on either side of the atrium entrance. But Victoria St storefronts will always be challenging due to the need for the car/bus entrance and exit.

If there is a need for more, tower B could be integrated with the Rumpel building to make a larger tower footprint, similar to what is planned for the Glovebox.
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(11-15-2018, 12:37 PM)tomh009 Wrote: @Spokes, there could be some retail storefronts on the King St side, on either side of the atrium entrance. But Victoria St storefronts will always be challenging due to the need for the car/bus entrance and exit.

I believe the region's plan was that the passenger pickup/dropoff would be on the second floor with an entrance from Duke. So the Victoria facing side would just have a bus entrance/exit, which left room for most of the Victoria-facing section to be retail or entrances to buildings above.
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