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King-Victoria Transit Hub
Oh, and yeah, “Metrolinx owns the tracks” is just an excuse. The correct approach is to say “we’re hoping to put a roof over the tracks; we’re starting discussions with Metrolinx on that topic”.

If Metrolinx is any good, they already want a roof, they just haven’t built it because they want to make sure it’s in the right place and because budgets don’t allow for every good project to be built all at once.
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(01-27-2020, 10:55 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Thanks for asking, and thanks for clarifying.

I'm still not understanding. In addition to being inconvenient (now buses must make more turns, and drive farther), the bus loop isn't in the picture, a pedestrian .... I wanna say, random paved space ... has replaced it, is it under the building?

While I think it is possible, I doubt the engineers would accept it as meeting their standards to fit a two lane bus access down this alley, when Metrolinx also wants space for a third platform:  https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4545983,-...384!8i8192
I don't see it as a huge inconvenience. Maybe an extra 20 seconds for buses traveling east on Victoria to turn onto duke then into the bus hub. I will take that any day to hide the buses behind future development. The bus loop that is initially being built will be replace with the building being extended into the future development and the rest will be landscaping/ public square.

There appears to be a lot of room between the old factory and the rail tracks more than enough for 2 lanes of buses. The third track will be built to the north of the existing tracks towards the google building. 

I encourage everyone to fill out the engageWR survey to give the region your opinion. I have already filled it out twice, once before the info night and one after.

I do feel like the region should already be working with metrolinx on this. So I don't see why they can't build a barn over the rails.
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The idea of buses entering off Duke strikes me as a much better (and safer) option than having them turning into and off of Victoria St.
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The bus loop is only for inter-city buses, GRT buses will continue to stop on-street to avoid the detour. Given Kitchener is a major terminal stop for inter-city bus routes I don't see the detour as likely to be a big deal.
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(01-28-2020, 10:31 AM)westwardloo Wrote:
(01-27-2020, 10:55 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Thanks for asking, and thanks for clarifying.

I'm still not understanding. In addition to being inconvenient (now buses must make more turns, and drive farther), the bus loop isn't in the picture, a pedestrian .... I wanna say, random paved space ... has replaced it, is it under the building?

While I think it is possible, I doubt the engineers would accept it as meeting their standards to fit a two lane bus access down this alley, when Metrolinx also wants space for a third platform:  https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4545983,-...384!8i8192
I don't see it as a huge inconvenience. Maybe an extra 20 seconds for buses traveling east on Victoria to turn onto duke then into the bus hub. I will take that any day to hide the buses behind future development. The bus loop that is initially being built will be replace with the building being extended into the future development and the rest will be landscaping/ public square.

There appears to be a lot of room between the old factory and the rail tracks more than enough for 2 lanes of buses. The third track will be built to the north of the existing tracks towards the google building. 

I encourage everyone to fill out the engageWR survey to give the region your opinion. I have already filled it out twice, once before the info night and one after.

I do feel like the region should already be working with metrolinx on this. So I don't see why they can't build a barn over the rails.

Why do you want to hide the buses? They aren't something to be ashamed of.  They should be front and centre, not just for convenience of access and ease of finding but because they are an important part of our community and visibility breeds comfort and familiarity for potential riders.  Hidden bus stations are some of the worst bus stations I've ever been too.

I don't know that there is a lot of space. By my measures there is somewhere around 12 meters, depending on where Metrolinx's property line is. Bus lanes will require 4 * 2 meters each, curbs are 0.5 * 2 and there must be a 0.5 meter clearance from the building, not including any sidewalks we already need almost 10 meters. Sidewalks should be minimum 2 meters wide, and frankly, leading to a transit station, should be much more.

(01-28-2020, 11:35 AM)panamaniac Wrote: The idea of buses entering off Duke strikes me as a much better (and safer) option than having them turning into and off of Victoria St.

I agree, and if they got priority at the light, it could even be faster I suppose.

(01-28-2020, 12:28 PM)taylortbb Wrote: The bus loop is only for inter-city buses, GRT buses will continue to stop on-street to avoid the detour. Given Kitchener is a major terminal stop for inter-city bus routes I don't see the detour as likely to be a big deal.

Fair enough.
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(01-28-2020, 12:37 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Why do you want to hide the buses? They aren't something to be ashamed of.  They should be front and centre, not just for convenience of access and ease of finding but because they are an important part of our community and visibility breeds comfort and familiarity for potential riders.  Hidden bus stations are some of the worst bus stations I've ever been too.

I don't know that there is a lot of space. By my measures there is somewhere around 12 meters, depending on where Metrolinx's property line is. Bus lanes will require 4 * 2 meters each, curbs are 0.5 * 2 and there must be a 0.5 meter clearance from the building, not including any sidewalks we already need almost 10 meters. Sidewalks should be minimum 2 meters wide, and frankly, leading to a transit station, should be much more.

(01-28-2020, 11:35 AM)panamaniac Wrote: The idea of buses entering off Duke strikes me as a much better (and safer) option than having them turning into and off of Victoria St.

I agree, and if they got priority at the light, it could even be faster I suppose.

(01-28-2020, 12:28 PM)taylortbb Wrote: The bus loop is only for inter-city buses, GRT buses will continue to stop on-street to avoid the detour. Given Kitchener is a major terminal stop for inter-city bus routes I don't see the detour as likely to be a big deal.

Fair enough.
I want to hide the bus terminal because I would prefer to have a large pubic square/ landscaping between the transit hub and Victoria st, just like most world class transit hubs. It is not any more inconvenient to have the transit hub underneath the future "office" tower. The transit hub would literally extended to tie into the new bus depot, so I don't know how access/ way finding would be an issue. Do you have any examples of these awful hidden bus terminals that have been constructed in the past decade? Look at where the new Toronto bus terminal is going to be located. Underneath a major office development. This would be the exact same just smaller scale.

I won't speak to the spacing right now as I don't know where metrolix property line is. Professionals will determine to feasibility of it, but it has my vote if it is an option.
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(01-28-2020, 01:48 PM)westwardloo Wrote: I won't speak to the spacing right now as I don't know where metrolix property line is.

http://gis.region.waterloo.on.ca/Locator
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(01-28-2020, 01:48 PM)westwardloo Wrote:
(01-28-2020, 12:37 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Why do you want to hide the buses? They aren't something to be ashamed of.  They should be front and centre, not just for convenience of access and ease of finding but because they are an important part of our community and visibility breeds comfort and familiarity for potential riders.  Hidden bus stations are some of the worst bus stations I've ever been too.

I don't know that there is a lot of space. By my measures there is somewhere around 12 meters, depending on where Metrolinx's property line is. Bus lanes will require 4 * 2 meters each, curbs are 0.5 * 2 and there must be a 0.5 meter clearance from the building, not including any sidewalks we already need almost 10 meters. Sidewalks should be minimum 2 meters wide, and frankly, leading to a transit station, should be much more.


I agree, and if they got priority at the light, it could even be faster I suppose.


Fair enough.
I want to hide the bus terminal because I would prefer to have a large pubic square/ landscaping between the transit hub and Victoria st, just like most world class transit hubs. It is not any more inconvenient to have the transit hub underneath the future "office" tower. The transit hub would literally extended to tie into the new bus depot, so I don't know how access/ way finding would be an issue. Do you have any examples of these awful hidden bus terminals that have been constructed in the past decade? Look at where the new Toronto bus terminal is going to be located. Underneath a major office development. This would be the exact same just smaller scale.

I won't speak to the spacing right now as I don't know where metrolix property line is. Professionals will determine to feasibility of it, but it has my vote if it is an option.

I don't know where it is because the picture is hidden, but it must be farther from the road, so its at least farther to walk, and it's possibly down stairs which makes access harder. As for way finding, if it can be seen from the road, the wayfinding is easier, if it is behind the building, it's people are going to have to search.

You have to remember everything is marginal, my parents rarely take transit, when they do they stress about every part, if the buses were visible from the street, they'd feel more comfortable taking transit than they would if they only knew where they were in theory.

The point is, why would you hide it? I would prefer to have transit at my transit station. It's not like there isn't room, the bus loop hasn't been replaced by a building, it's been replaced by empty paved space.

As for awful stations, I don't have a directly analogous example, I am thinking of bus stations in cities which are out of the way, not just central but hidden, but I really take exception to the idea that they should be hidden.
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(01-28-2020, 03:36 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: I don't know where it is because the picture is hidden, but it must be farther from the road, so its at least farther to walk, and it's possibly down stairs which makes access harder. As for way finding, if it can be seen from the road, the wayfinding is easier, if it is behind the building, it's people are going to have to search.

You have to remember everything is marginal, my parents rarely take transit, when they do they stress about every part, if the buses were visible from the street, they'd feel more comfortable taking transit than they would if they only knew where they were in theory.

The point is, why would you hide it? I would prefer to have transit at my transit station. It's not like there isn't room, the bus loop hasn't been replaced by a building, it's been replaced by empty paved space.

As for awful stations, I don't have a directly analogous example, I am thinking of bus stations in cities which are out of the way, not just central but hidden, but I really take exception to the idea that they should be hidden.
Not sure if you have looked at the future render proposal or not, but you can clearly see the "future Tower" overhang the bus terminal, between the building and the Metrolinx tracks. The bus terminal will be fully connect to the Transit hub. So one would walk into the transit building to buy a ticket and either go up to the platforms for the trains or turn right and walk to the bus platforms. It is not empty asphalt it is a public plaza/ landscaped area. It would literally replace an empty paved space. I understand transit can be difficult for some people, but that is the whole point of the transit hub. you walk in and ask either a GRT, Metrolinx, via or Go staff member where you want to go and where you need to catch the transit option. Presumably there will also be way finding signs everywhere at the hub. 

Sorry for the crud diagram I put it together quickly on bluebeam to illustrate what the conceptual future plan it.

[attachment=6696]
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Would the intercity bus hub be underground?
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When the province undertook the courthouse project, they did it with the plan that the courthouse they were building would suit the needs to the community for the next 40+ years. Look at the difference. We have one of the best court houses in the province. It exceeds our needs now.

As others have commented, there will be thousands of people using this service daily. What is proposed will be a financial liability. It will be outgrown in a decade or so and require massive money to rebuild on a site that already has a building.

I plan on writing my regional councilor with regards to the Region's lack of priority and focus on this project. As others have commented, these proposals are underwhelming at best. I encourage other members to write their councilors with their concerns.

One question I would ask here is in regards to the green space. As this lot is small to start out with, it strikes me that the green space is wasted space. Should we not be maximizing the space available in this location and not dedicating it to a seasonal use?
_____________________________________
I used to be the mayor of sim city. I know what I am talking about.
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My question on the survey was:  What about bikes?

In the imagery there seems to be bikes rendered into the vehicle lanes on Victoria.  Has there been no thought put into integrating bike lanes and direct access to station indoor bike parking without dismounting and walking through a pedestrian plaza?  Or more importantly without inter-phasing with car and bus traffic?  It would be quite short sighted to miss that opportunity.
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(01-30-2020, 08:21 AM)Drake Wrote: When the province undertook the courthouse project, they did it with the plan that the courthouse they were building would suit the needs to the community for the next 40+ years. Look at the difference. We have one of the best court houses in the province. It exceeds our needs now.

As others have commented, there will be thousands of people using this service daily. What is proposed will be a financial liability. It will be outgrown in a decade or so and require massive money to rebuild on a site that already has a building.

I plan on writing my regional councilor with regards to the Region's lack of priority and focus on this project. As others have commented, these proposals are underwhelming at best. I encourage other members to write their councilors with their concerns.

One question I would ask here is in regards to the green space. As this lot is small to start out with, it strikes me that the green space is wasted space. Should we not be maximizing the space available in this location and not dedicating it to a seasonal use?

Couldn't agree more, ditto!
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(01-30-2020, 12:17 AM)Spokes Wrote: Would the intercity bus hub be underground?
It does not appear that way. The bus terminal would be at grade, the building would be built on stilts at the back to accommodate the buses.
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(01-30-2020, 08:21 AM)Drake Wrote: When the province undertook the courthouse project, they did it with the plan that the courthouse they were building would suit the needs to the community for the next 40+ years. Look at the difference. We have one of the best court houses in the province. It exceeds our needs now.

As others have commented, there will be thousands of people using this service daily. What is proposed will be a financial liability. It will be outgrown in a decade or so and require massive money to rebuild on a site that already has a building.

I plan on writing my regional councilor with regards to the Region's lack of priority and focus on this project. As others have commented, these proposals are underwhelming at best. I encourage other members to write their councilors with their concerns.

One question I would ask here is in regards to the green space. As this lot is small to start out with, it strikes me that the green space is wasted space. Should we not be maximizing the space available in this location and not dedicating it to a seasonal use?

Is there information about station capacity available?  On what basis are you saying it's inadequate?
Personally, I find the public square to be the best element of the project, although knowing the Region, I wouldn't be surprised to find out it's not intended to be permanent.
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