Mississauga Developments

[westwardloo]

Yet developers all over Canada seem to see potential dollars by redeveloping these relics from the 1960's into mixed-use neighborhoods. To name a few Oakridge, brentwood, lougheed, Galleria, cloverdale, Agincourt, even yorkdale which is probably the most successful mall in Canada has plans to build residential towers where parking currently sits. There is money in it for these developers. They are coming to realize that a sea of free parking makes them no money. It is only a matter of time until developers in the region see this opportunity. I think some of the smaller malls in the region could see plans for redevelopment in the next decade. Frederick st mall is prime for redevelopment into one of these neighbourhoods.

Now you’re talking about something different — building stuff on the existing parking lots, which if I understand correctly is what is planned for Square One. I’m talking about not knocking down a perfectly functional shopping district just to fix a public space ownership/status problem.

There is absolutely zero incompatibility between enclosed malls and mixed-use area. Imagine an entire city block covered by a 5-story podium with towers rising out of it. Ground floor is shopping. Next floor is medical offices, dentist, therapist, and so on. Remaining 3 floors are commercial office space. Towers are residential. If warranted, there can be basement parking levels.

Ok but the thing is these malls were not designed to be a walkable mixed use neighbourhood. They were piecemealed together over decades. Most of the malls on the list I described are basically knocking down the existing structure as we know it and rebuilding. Guess what a lot of them are going towards an open air concept, with covered awnings.  

https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/agincourt-mall-redevelopment

https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/humbertown-redevelopment

https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/promenade-mall-revitalization

https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/cloverdale-mall-expansion

https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/galleria-park

https://urbantoronto.ca/database/projects/shoppers-world-brampton

https://www.oakville.ca/assets/2011%20planning/sp-17290041002-architecturalplans.pdf

 I don't think i need to provide any more examples you get the point. 

[ijmorlan]

Ok but the thing is these malls were not designed to be a walkable mixed use neighbourhood. They were piecemealed together over decades. Most of the malls on the list I described are basically knocking down the existing structure as we know it and rebuilding. Guess what a lot of them are going towards an open air concept, with covered awnings.  

The best mixed-use neighbourhoods were “piecemealed” together over decades or even centuries. Malls by contrast are typically built all at once and then occasionally extended somewhat. So I’m not really sure what you’re getting at.

Yes, I’m aware a lot of malls are getting knocked down and replaced with unprotected spaces.

I keep trying to ask but nobody seems to be able to answer how ripping the roof off the mall and letting cars drive down some of its corridors makes it a better shopping experience.

[westwardloo]

Ok but the thing is these malls were not designed to be a walkable mixed use neighbourhood. They were piecemealed together over decades. Most of the malls on the list I described are basically knocking down the existing structure as we know it and rebuilding. Guess what a lot of them are going towards an open air concept, with covered awnings.  

The best mixed-use neighbourhoods were “piecemealed” together over decades or even centuries. Malls by contrast are typically built all at once and then occasionally extended somewhat. So I’m not really sure what you’re getting at.

Yes, I’m aware a lot of malls are getting knocked down and replaced with unprotected spaces.

I keep trying to ask but nobody seems to be able to answer how ripping the roof off the mall and letting cars drive down some of its corridors makes it a better shopping experience.

I would hazard a guess that most of those neighbourhoods were conceived in the 19th Century.I think you would be hard pressed to find a nice mixed use neighbourhood "piecemealed" together in the past 80 years. Both Fairway and Conestoga mall have added major wings after initial construction hense "piece meal" non grid form of most malls. 

Its not all about the "shopping experience" anymore. This is what developers are realizing. New Malls haven't been built in to past 30 years its all stip malls in the suburbs now. Is this a better shopping experience? The thing is more and more people are turning to online shopping for convenience. These neighbourhood malls have to look at alternatives to bring people in. Having people live/ work on top/ beside is a good start. Providing park space, unique restaurants with patios are some of the innovative solutions being used to attract new patrons.

[plam]

It doesn’t need to be re-developed to fix that. Just change the ownership to the city and the status of the main corridors to being streets (closed to vehicle traffic, presumably).

Knocking the whole thing down and rebuilding without roofs spanning the spaces between the buildings seems like an overreaction.

That sounds like a fairly major expropriation to me. Malls are also climate controlled, so you'd have the city take that over?

Somehow a mall doesn't feel like a street to me. The urban design is different (and in the mall these days kind of hostile to not shopping). It's more than just the matter of a roof.

[ijmorlan]

It doesn’t need to be re-developed to fix that. Just change the ownership to the city and the status of the main corridors to being streets (closed to vehicle traffic, presumably).

Knocking the whole thing down and rebuilding without roofs spanning the spaces between the buildings seems like an overreaction.

That sounds like a fairly major expropriation to me. Malls are also climate controlled, so you'd have the city take that over?

Somehow a mall doesn't feel like a street to me. The urban design is different (and in the mall these days kind of hostile to not shopping). It's more than just the matter of a roof.

“It's more than just the matter of a roof”.

That’s what I’ve been trying to say. Different establishments can be linked by indoor walkways in ways that don’t have the downsides of a mall.

I agree that the inside of a mall doesn’t feel like a street. For one matter, the interior corridors usually connect poorly to surrounding properties — one has to walk through a huge parking lot. There are other differences as well, but I think the total lack of connection to nearby properties is the biggest issue.

As to the expropriation, I was not proposing expropriation, just pointing out that if the problem with a mall is that the “public” corridors aren’t really public, that can be changed without any construction. If a mall owner wants to “improve” it by re-building as a bunch of small separate buildings with city streets between them, why not just sell the corridors to the city for $1, leave the existing building in place, and give people climate-controlled links between stores? Not sure who would maintain the climate control. But that’s not the real point. The real point is, I want to have the option of doing all my shopping without going in and outside all the time. Given the amount of enclosed space in a typical downtown, I don’t think that is such an unreasonable desire.

[ijmorlan]

The best mixed-use neighbourhoods were “piecemealed” together over decades or even centuries. Malls by contrast are typically built all at once and then occasionally extended somewhat. So I’m not really sure what you’re getting at.

Yes, I’m aware a lot of malls are getting knocked down and replaced with unprotected spaces.

I keep trying to ask but nobody seems to be able to answer how ripping the roof off the mall and letting cars drive down some of its corridors makes it a better shopping experience.

I would hazard a guess that most of those neighbourhoods were conceived in the 19th Century.I think you would be hard pressed to find a nice mixed use neighbourhood "piecemealed" together in the past 80 years. Both Fairway and Conestoga mall have added major wings after initial construction hense "piece meal" non grid form of most malls. 

Its not all about the "shopping experience" anymore. This is what developers are realizing. New Malls haven't been built in to past 30 years its all stip malls in the suburbs now. Is this a better shopping experience? The thing is more and more people are turning to online shopping for convenience. These neighbourhood malls have to look at alternatives to bring people in. Having people live/ work on top/ beside is a good start. Providing park space, unique restaurants with patios are some of the innovative solutions being used to attract new patrons.

I’m including Europe, where many shopping areas contain buildings going back 500 years.

I agree malls should have mixed use and non-commercial attractions built into them. What I dispute is the idea that this can only be done by having a bunch of small buildings with no indoor links. Enclosed malls provide a significant benefit for everybody, but especially those with limited mobility or health problems. With careful design and creativity, they could even provide amenities that really don’t exist right now. For example, I’ve long thought that there should have been a long-term plan to create continuous indoor space between Westmount Place, the retirement residence, the Rec Centre, and the Barrelyards development. Then instead of a boring rounded rectangle walking track inside the Rec Centre, there could be a walking track that actually takes people somewhere.

[westwardloo]

I know a place where you can do all your shopping in a condition space without even standing up. It's called online and millions of canadians do it ever day. 

That is the point. Small regional malls are dying. Landowners are coming up with creative ways to inject life into these areas. Residents, workers, recreational activities. 

I don't understand the fascination with condition space to do shopping, personally I like the elements. Look at the outlet mall in milton, very successful (even though I hate the concept). If you want conditioned space go to the mall. 

Personally I would love if Fairview mall started completely from scratch and redeveloped like some of the malls in the GTA. I might actually go there. Until then I will stick to the quality of restaurant downtown and uptown and do most my shopping online.

[ijmorlan]

I know a place where you can do all your shopping in a condition space without even standing up. It's called online and millions of canadians do it ever day. 

That is the point. Small regional malls are dying. Landowners are coming up with creative ways to inject life into these areas. Residents, workers, recreational activities. 

I don't understand the fascination with condition space to do shopping, personally I like the elements. Look at the outlet mall in milton, very successful (even though I hate the concept). If you want conditioned space go to the mall. 

Personally I would love if Fairview mall started completely from scratch and redeveloped like some of the malls in the GTA. I might actually go there. Until then I will stick to the quality of restaurant downtown and uptown and do most my shopping online.

It’s not just about the shopping. Many people want to get out of their apartment but aren’t in a state to deal with rain, snow, and cold.

I don’t understand why giving people the choice of staying inside or going outside is so controversial.

[westwardloo]

I know a place where you can do all your shopping in a condition space without even standing up. It's called online and millions of canadians do it ever day. 

That is the point. Small regional malls are dying. Landowners are coming up with creative ways to inject life into these areas. Residents, workers, recreational activities. 

I don't understand the fascination with condition space to do shopping, personally I like the elements. Look at the outlet mall in milton, very successful (even though I hate the concept). If you want conditioned space go to the mall. 

Personally I would love if Fairview mall started completely from scratch and redeveloped like some of the malls in the GTA. I might actually go there. Until then I will stick to the quality of restaurant downtown and uptown and do most my shopping online.

It’s not just about the shopping. Many people want to get out of their apartment but aren’t in a state to deal with rain, snow, and cold.

I don’t understand why giving people the choice of staying inside or going outside is so controversial.

It's only controversial because you want it to be. You already have that choice. There are 3 somewhat successful malls in the region. And another dozen or so non quite as successful malls for you to walk inside. May I suggest just going to the rec centre and walk the track there?

[Acitta]

I have never been a big fan of malls since I have no interest in shopping at most of the stores in them, but enclosed malls are certainly better than horrors like The Boardwalk. That said, many malls are failing. I was in Westmount Mall in London recently and it is dead. All of the second floor no longer has retail, only offices. Much of the main floor is empty. The closing of Sears was a big blow to it. There are probably too many malls to survive the current retail environment.

[jeffster]

It's only controversial because you want it to be. You already have that choice. There are 3 somewhat successful malls in the region. And another dozen or so non quite as successful malls for you to walk inside. May I suggest just going to the rec centre and walk the track there?

What other malls are there in the region? I can only think of Frederick Mall and Stanley Park Mall in Kitchener, in Cambridge we have Southworks, and then we have the St. Jacob's Outlets just outside Waterloo. I suppose Waterloo has a very small remnant of a mall at Waterloo Square. But I can't think of others.

[ijmorlan]

It's only controversial because you want it to be. You already have that choice. There are 3 somewhat successful malls in the region. And another dozen or so non quite as successful malls for you to walk inside. May I suggest just going to the rec centre and walk the track there?

You’re losing the plot here. I’m saying more care should be put into designing places so that people can benefit more from the long existing technologies known as “roofs”, “walls”, and “central heating”. You seem to be saying that there is already enough. Well, obviously there is enough in one sense; almost everybody now benefits from those technologies. But in another sense, it could be so much better with mostly just more care taken, not so much more resources invested.

[tomh009]

I don't understand the fascination with condition space to do shopping, personally I like the elements. Look at the outlet mall in milton, very successful (even though I hate the concept). If you want conditioned space go to the mall. 

OK, so I'm happy walking (outside!) between stores. But I'm not so thrilled having to walk hundreds of metres across vast parking lots to get to the next store, such as at Boardwalk. Or Sunrise Centre. Or Sportsworld. Or countless other big-box developments outside the region.

[westwardloo]

I don't understand the fascination with condition space to do shopping, personally I like the elements. Look at the outlet mall in milton, very successful (even though I hate the concept). If you want conditioned space go to the mall. 

OK, so I'm happy walking (outside!) between stores. But I'm not so thrilled having to walk hundreds of metres across vast parking lots to get to the next store, such as at Boardwalk. Or Sunrise Centre. Or Sportsworld. Or countless other big-box developments outside the region.

Absolutely Big box Strip malls are my personally hell. I avoid them at all cost. Unfortunately downtown doesn't have the one box store i frequent a Canadian tire. I think the city really messed up the sportsworld redevelopment. Hopefully an lrt stop with encourage them to try again at creating a nice mixed-use neighbourhood.

[plam]

OK, so I'm happy walking (outside!) between stores. But I'm not so thrilled having to walk hundreds of metres across vast parking lots to get to the next store, such as at Boardwalk. Or Sunrise Centre. Or Sportsworld. Or countless other big-box developments outside the region.

Absolutely Big box Strip malls are my personally hell. I avoid them at all cost. Unfortunately downtown doesn't have the one box store i frequent a Canadian tire. I think the city really messed up the sportsworld redevelopment. Hopefully an lrt stop with encourage them to try again at creating a nice mixed-use neighbourhood.

Sportsworld redevelopment and Boardwalk are relatively modern fiascos. I just can't even.