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ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit
(05-24-2019, 02:33 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Apparently Keolis' goal for ION signal timing is "1-2 minutes," which seems far too long to me based on watching a bunch of C-Train videos where they typically last no more than 40-60 seconds. Northfield would be nearly unusable in one direction with the signals down half the time during rush hour in addition to any pedestrian crossings.

3 things to know before the Ion launches

1-2 minutes is the same cycle as a red light at a major intersection.

Clearly 1-2 minutes every 5 minutes at the most frequent won't be a problem for Northfield, which already has intersections that are red for 1-2 minutes ever 2 minutes.
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(05-24-2019, 02:33 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Apparently Keolis' goal for ION signal timing is "1-2 minutes," which seems far too long to me based on watching a bunch of C-Train videos where they typically last no more than 40-60 seconds. Northfield would be nearly unusable in one direction with the signals down half the time during rush hour in addition to any pedestrian crossings.

3 things to know before the Ion launches

Under-promise and over-deliver?  When I was listening to the radio calls during the commissioning last fall they were aiming for around 25-30 seconds before the train arrived and no more than 10 seconds after it departed.  Assuming it takes 10 seconds for the train to cross the road that's still under a minute...

Also some really poor reporting there about the track lubricators.  CTV makes it sound like they were installed in response to the condo residents complaints, while in truth they were part of the system design from the beginning and were already installed before the first vehicles went out.  It's true though that they weren't activated yet last November and even now they're still getting them dialed in:  While some are overactive and leaving huge blops of grease that even the LRV operators are radio'ing in about as they cause excess wheel slippage, others still aren't quite doing enough and there's the odd corner that's still noisy.  Fortunately those are getting fewer by the day!

As for the vehicle speeds and timings (a recent Facebook topic), I left work on Tuesday night around 5:00 p.m. and drove home down King St to watch trains.  One pulled onto King from Allen about a half a block ahead of me and I couldn't even catch it!  Despite the fact that it made all stops I didn't pass it until Hayward, and that's because it was stopped on Hayward waiting for the poorly tuned pedestrian gate to drop.  If it hadn't been for that, it probably would have remained ahead of me until I turned onto Manitou.  I had a similar experience northbound yesterday.  As I came up Charles the vehicle was just leaving Market Station ahead of me, and again it made all stops and turned into Waterloo Public Square before I was able to pass it.  Admittedly I could have gotten the jump by not taking the same route down Duke that it did, but it still bodes extremely well for the system's rush hour performance.
...K
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(05-24-2019, 03:11 PM)KevinT Wrote:
(05-24-2019, 02:33 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Apparently Keolis' goal for ION signal timing is "1-2 minutes," which seems far too long to me based on watching a bunch of C-Train videos where they typically last no more than 40-60 seconds. Northfield would be nearly unusable in one direction with the signals down half the time during rush hour in addition to any pedestrian crossings.

3 things to know before the Ion launches

Under-promise and over-deliver?  When I was listening to the radio calls during the commissioning last fall they were aiming for around 25-30 seconds before the train arrived and no more than 10 seconds after it departed.  Assuming it takes 10 seconds for the train to cross the road that's still under a minute...

Also some really poor reporting there about the track lubricators.  CTV makes it sound like they were installed in response to the condo residents complaints, while in truth they were part of the system design from the beginning and were already installed before the first vehicles went out.  It's true though that they weren't activated yet last November and even now they're still getting them dialed in:  While some are overactive and leaving huge blops of grease that even the LRV operators are radio'ing in about as they cause excess wheel slippage, others still aren't doing quite enough and there is the odd corner that's still a bit noisy.  Fortunately those are getting fewer by the day!

As for the vehicle speeds and timings themselves, I left work on Tuesday night around 5:00 p.m. and drove home down King St to train watch.  One pulled onto King from Allen about a half a block ahead of me and I couldn't even catch it!  Despite the fact that it made all stops I didn't pass it until Hayward, and that's because it was stopped on Hayward waiting for the poorly tuned pedestrian gate to drop.  If it hadn't been for that, it probably would have remained ahead of me until I turned onto Manitou.  I had a similar experience northbound yesterday.  As I came up Charles the vehicle was just leaving Market Station ahead of me, and again it made all stops and turned into Waterloo Public square before I was able to pass it.  Admittedly I could have gotten the jump by not taking the same route down Duke that it did, but it still bodes extremely well for the system's rush hour performance.

This!

Why is accurate reporting so difficult.
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(05-24-2019, 03:11 PM)KevinT Wrote:
(05-24-2019, 02:33 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Apparently Keolis' goal for ION signal timing is "1-2 minutes," which seems far too long to me based on watching a bunch of C-Train videos where they typically last no more than 40-60 seconds. Northfield would be nearly unusable in one direction with the signals down half the time during rush hour in addition to any pedestrian crossings.

3 things to know before the Ion launches

Under-promise and over-deliver?  When I was listening to the radio calls during the commissioning last fall they were aiming for around 25-30 seconds before the train arrived and no more than 10 seconds after it departed.  Assuming it takes 10 seconds for the train to cross the road that's still under a minute...

Also some really poor reporting there about the track lubricators.  CTV makes it sound like they were installed in response to the condo residents complaints, while in truth they were part of the system design from the beginning and were already installed before the first vehicles went out.  It's true though that they weren't activated yet last November and even now they're still getting them dialed in:  While some are overactive and leaving huge blops of grease that even the LRV operators are radio'ing in about as they cause excess wheel slippage, others still aren't quite doing enough and there's the odd corner that's still noisy.  Fortunately those are getting fewer by the day!

As for the vehicle speeds and timings (a recent Facebook topic), I left work on Tuesday night around 5:00 p.m. and drove home down King St to watch trains.  One pulled onto King from Allen about a half a block ahead of me and I couldn't even catch it!  Despite the fact that it made all stops I didn't pass it until Hayward, and that's because it was stopped on Hayward waiting for the poorly tuned pedestrian gate to drop.  If it hadn't been for that, it probably would have remained ahead of me until I turned onto Manitou.  I had a similar experience northbound yesterday.  As I came up Charles the vehicle was just leaving Market Station ahead of me, and again it made all stops and turned into Waterloo Public Square before I was able to pass it.  Admittedly I could have gotten the jump by not taking the same route down Duke that it did, but it still bodes extremely well for the system's rush hour performance.
 Some lubricators ended up in unfortunate locations. One in particular it on Caroline at William, it is right in front of the drvieway to Uptown Tailor Shop. So cars going in bring grease up on the driveway and sidewalk.
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(05-24-2019, 03:19 PM)boatracer Wrote:  Some lubricators ended up in unfortunate locations. One in particular it on Caroline at William, it is right in front of the drvieway to Uptown Tailor Shop. So cars going in bring grease up on the driveway and sidewalk.

There is one at Waterloo Town Square that is right in the delivery access for Cora’s. There is a streak of grease running out several metres from the lubricator.
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(05-24-2019, 02:39 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: 1-2 minutes is the same cycle as a red light at a major intersection.

Clearly 1-2 minutes every 5 minutes at the most frequent won't be a problem for Northfield, which already has intersections that are red for 1-2 minutes ever 2 minutes.

Sure, but there wasn't an existing intersection there, and major delays in that section of road combined with the expressway on-ramp and traffic from Parkside Dr can easily back up cars to Weber St. We've already discussed the related issue where a train at Northfield Station can cause the signal to stay down for extended periods of time. I appreciate the common refrain that an LRV may be carrying far more people than are waiting in the cars at the intersection, but that doesn't mean we should have lower standards for signal timing than other cities with LRTs to the point a major car route becomes a choke point.

I was also annoyed about CTV's inaccurate reporting about track lubrication. How hard is it to research something that's been ongoing for years?
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(05-24-2019, 07:06 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote:
(05-24-2019, 02:39 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: 1-2 minutes is the same cycle as a red light at a major intersection.

Clearly 1-2 minutes every 5 minutes at the most frequent won't be a problem for Northfield, which already has intersections that are red for 1-2 minutes ever 2 minutes.

Sure, but there wasn't an existing intersection there, and major delays in that section of road combined with the expressway on-ramp and traffic from Parkside Dr can easily back up cars to Weber St. We've already discussed the related issue where a train at Northfield Station can cause the signal to stay down for extended periods of time. I appreciate the common refrain that an LRV may be carrying far more people than are waiting in the cars at the intersection, but that doesn't mean we should have lower standards for signal timing than other cities with LRTs to the point a major car route becomes a choke point.

I was also annoyed about CTV's inaccurate reporting about track lubrication. How hard is it to research something that's been ongoing for years?

I just don't think once the signals are timed right, this will be a major choke point for cars.  If there's one thing we know about most of our regional traffic engineers is that they will jump through any hoop, spend any money in order to ensure convenient flow of traffic every minute of every day.

I do think our society is overly obsessed with fixing traffic congestion that occurs for a max of an hour a day, spending enormous sums of money and untold lives on fixing that one hour of time.  I think we *should* have lower standards for congestion.  But that's unrelated to the LRT.
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(05-24-2019, 02:33 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Apparently Keolis' goal for ION signal timing is "1-2 minutes," which seems far too long to me based on watching a bunch of C-Train videos where they typically last no more than 40-60 seconds. Northfield would be nearly unusable in one direction with the signals down half the time during rush hour in addition to any pedestrian crossings.

3 things to know before the Ion launches

3 things to know about the media 

The media has extreme bias and prejeduce against the Ion project 

The media is hoping for complete failure so they can do another award winning investigative article on the "I told you so"

The media always targets the negative on this project and does not show positive
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(05-24-2019, 02:33 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Apparently Keolis' goal for ION signal timing is "1-2 minutes," which seems far too long to me based on watching a bunch of C-Train videos where they typically last no more than 40-60 seconds. Northfield would be nearly unusable in one direction with the signals down half the time during rush hour in addition to any pedestrian crossings.

3 things to know before the Ion launches

If you go to Europe the wait before and after any LRTs, it is seconds not minutes. These "goals" or times would be causing revolts by bicyclists and by vehicles ... You would think this new LRT was the invention of LRT travel and city life  Confused
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(Yesterday, 04:35 PM)MacBerry Wrote:
(05-24-2019, 02:33 PM)Bob_McBob Wrote: Apparently Keolis' goal for ION signal timing is "1-2 minutes," which seems far too long to me based on watching a bunch of C-Train videos where they typically last no more than 40-60 seconds. Northfield would be nearly unusable in one direction with the signals down half the time during rush hour in addition to any pedestrian crossings.

3 things to know before the Ion launches

If you go to Europe the wait before and after any LRTs, it is seconds not minutes. These "goals" or times would be causing revolts by bicyclists and by vehicles ... You would think this new LRT was the invention of LRT travel and city life  Confused

But the 1-2 minutes is for the entire process …
  1. Start signal, gate raises
  2. Gate is down, waiting for train arrive
  3. Train passes
  4. Gate is down, waiting for train to leave
  5. Gate lowers, signal ends

The train itself probably takes 15-20 seconds to pass, so a minute for the entire process seems not unreasonable. Of course "1-2 minutes" is actually a fairly big range.
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