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Grand River Transit
(03-13-2018, 05:01 PM)chutten Wrote:
(03-13-2018, 01:38 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: As KevinT provided in a great explanation, the fundamental payment technology is different.  Oyster terminals also accept Visa cards, which means, so far as I understand, that every single payment terminal must have a continuous internet connection.  Offline payments are not possible.

Not necessarily. Credit card companies are only too happy to wait for a vendor to clear transactions a day or more later. (An extreme example: you can still use a physical carbon-paper credit-card payment device these days. The ones that go "ka-chunk ka-chunk")

In fact, Transport for London's implementation wouldn't work without post-facto clearing. It requires you to use your credit card at tap-in -and- tap-out (and whenever a ticket inspector comes along). At the end of the day (or whenever they reconcile all of their data inputs in their system) they determine which cards tapped in, which cards tapped out, and which cards were inspected. If you've been inspected without tapping-in and out, you are penalized. If you've tapped-in without tapping-out, you pay the maximum fare. You also have per-day and per-week capping so that they only charge your credit card for the minimum of the sum of your individual trips, or the value of a daily or weekly pass over that period.

They can do this through <technical details elided> ... basically they use crypto verify the card hasn't been tampered with, and then read the card number off of it. At the end of the day they gather all the timestamped and location-tagged actions per card and reconcile what to do with them (given the prior travel history of that card in the TfL system in the preceding six days)

Possibly, I don't know the implementation details of Oyster, but at least here, card processors have moved to online processors. All the payment terminals we have are online.

Historically they used the offline terminals (the paper ones), but even then you were required to check other ID or even call the Card Issuer under certain circumstances. It's all about risk of fraud. Processors can charge more for riskier transactions. Which is why there is a limit on how much you can tap to pay.

Quote:To my knowledge there is no technical reason you can't put a stored-value card like easyGO Fare Card on Apple/Android Pay. (search words: "secure element" "NFC") There are lots of political reasons not to.

I'd see it far more likely that they'd furnish Apple/Android Pay with the device-specific card number and treat it like a credit card. Record the transactions, reconcile at day's end (but instead of reconciling against credit card companies, it would be against a centralized stored value balance). To be clear, I don't see this as at all likely, just _more_ likely.

It may be technically possible to implement stored value cards using the secure element on most modern phones, but now they're trusting a third, open ecosystem, as a trusted secure store of value. That simply isn't going to happen.

I don't see them implementing a non-stored value option, given that they've gone through a lot of technical hoops to achieve stored value. But that could be done securely with phones given that the NFC wouldn't be storing anything. I also have no idea if the payment terminals are capable of this.

One thing of note, there is a reason for stored value cards over account backed cards, and that's one of anonymity. While I don't personally use this, many people do feel it is important to be able to travel without being tracked. This wouldn't be possible without stored value cards.
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(03-13-2018, 05:01 PM)megabytephreak Wrote: All the new phones with NFC also have a secure element, a separate processor which is supposed to be able to store this kind of info on a user device, without them being able to alter it. This include an ability to load "apps" which are also secure from each other. This emulates the behavior of the processors in the DESfire cards. One of the applications is (eventually) to replace SIM cards with an eSIM functionality, which I understand has similar security requirements to something like a fare card. So from a technical perspective it is supposed to be possible to do the stored value thing securely. I'm not sure how far along the phone vendors are on exposing this functionality though.

Perhaps the bigger issue is that given the locally stored value model, there would need to be a mechanism to move the info from a card to phone, or from phone to phone (i.e. if getting a new phone). And if your phone died, anything stored on it (passes, value) would not be able to be recovered without risk of duplication (how do you prove it it dead). Some sort of revocation mechanism might be possible though, similar to what I think is supposed to be available if you lose your card and it is registered.

*supposed to* being the key here.  GRT is unlikely to trust a third party open ecosystem to store value.  If there was a bug found in Android's implementation (or any Android phone vendor, there are hundreds), anyone could get free rides, there's nothing GRT could do to stop it, besides stop accepting that form of payment, which is much harder to do than simply not starting.

But I don't make GRT policy, I guess it's possible they'll surprise us one day.
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To be clear for those just skimming the summaries, all of this phone-based stuff is orders of magnitude trickier than "just" allowing EasyGO Fare Card (goodness, I'm already getting tired of typing that whole thing) stored values and fare products on Presto and vice versa. Or accepting Presto stored values on GRT terminals (and vice versa). Those are totally things that can be done with available technology and minimal configuration -today-.

And we all have views about how likely we think that is to happen anytime soon.

In my opinion I do not expect contactless support or Presto interoperability (beyond the easyGO Fare Card's connect-to-GO flag) for the next, say, two years. Maybe vocal ideation about it, but no implementations.

(my reasoning being contactless support would cannibalize GRT's stored-value easyGO Fare Card market at lower margins, and Presto has shown no (public) interest in interoperability with the easyGO Fare Card)
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(03-14-2018, 09:05 AM)chutten Wrote: (my reasoning being contactless support would cannibalize GRT's stored-value easyGO Fare Card market at lower margins, and Presto has shown no (public) interest in interoperability with the easyGO Fare Card)

Easy way around that. If you tap Presto and or/credit/interac/apple pay/google pay card, charge the full $3.25 cash price, and if you tap EasyGo, you get the discounted ticket price (Which I believe is now $2.76). If you use it more than a couple times a year, its makes it worth it to get a easy-go card for most people.
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(03-13-2018, 11:49 AM)KevinT Wrote: Why is that an issue for Android?  Because the mobile would have to emulate a card of its own, with a unique identity, stored value, and transaction history that's completely independent of your physical Presto card.  You couldn't start a trip on one and then continue with the other.

This is how Suica/PASMO works with phones, too: once you enable your phone, the card no longer works. You can't have two "cards" with the same identity.
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(03-13-2018, 07:21 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: Possibly, I don't know the implementation details of Oyster, but at least here, card processors have moved to online processors.  All the payment terminals we have are online.

Payment by paper charge slips is still possible here, too. It's what our company's limo service, for example, uses.
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(03-14-2018, 09:05 AM)chutten Wrote: In my opinion I do not expect contactless support or Presto interoperability (beyond the easyGO Fare Card's connect-to-GO flag) for the next, say, two years. Maybe vocal ideation about it, but no implementations.

I wasn't suggesting that the two be combined, I was using Presto as an example of the limitations involved in adding mobile support to easyGO, since I'm more familiar with the Presto implementation than I am with easyGO's.  Its still too new.  :-)
...K
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An update on the beta program has been promised to come in on Monday (the 19th). Presumably letting us now when the transition to full service will be...?
My Twitter: @KevinLMaps
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(03-14-2018, 11:07 AM)KevinL Wrote: An update on the beta program has been promised to come in on Monday (the 19th). Presumably letting us now when the transition to full service will be...?

Or they're opening the online portal to beta users.
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The grteasygofarecard.ca site is offline... Showing a 404 error.
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(03-14-2018, 12:46 PM)bgb_ca Wrote: The grteasygofarecard.ca site is offline... Showing a 404 error.

Ugh, why not just easygo.ca?  (Unless that's already in use for a laxative...)

Edit to add: It's not, I checked.
...K
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Looks like it was registered in 2008, but expired a few weeks ago

Domain Information
Domain: easygo.ca
Registrar: Namespro Solutions Inc.
Registration Date: 2008-03-05
Expiration Date: 2018-03-05
Updated Date: 2018-03-06
Status: redemption
Name Servers:
ns1.bodis.com
ns2.bodis.com
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(03-14-2018, 03:21 PM)KevinT Wrote:
(03-14-2018, 12:46 PM)bgb_ca Wrote: The grteasygofarecard.ca site is offline... Showing a 404 error.

Ugh, why not just easygo.ca?  (Unless that's already in use for a laxative...)

Edit to add:  It's not, I checked.

farecard.grt.ca would be much better tbh. the site also needed a facelift to match GRT's new website design standards
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(03-14-2018, 03:50 PM)bgb_ca Wrote: Looks like it was registered in 2008, but expired a few weeks ago

Domain Information
Domain: easygo.ca
Registrar: Namespro Solutions Inc.
Registration Date: 2008-03-05
Expiration Date: 2018-03-05
Updated Date: 2018-03-06
Status: redemption
Name Servers:
ns1.bodis.com
ns2.bodis.com

Thanks, I tried to claim it to put a redirect on it (I'd turn it over to GRT gratis if they asked) but my guy tells me that redemption status means that the previous owner still has some time to reclaim it before anyone else can.  I've got a watch on it now, maybe I can still get it if GRT (or a laxative company) doesn't already have a watch of their on it.
...K
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(03-14-2018, 04:12 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote:
(03-14-2018, 03:21 PM)KevinT Wrote: Ugh, why not just easygo.ca?  (Unless that's already in use for a laxative...)

Edit to add:  It's not, I checked.

farecard.grt.ca would be much better tbh. the site also needed a facelift to match GRT's new website design standards

Yes, I don’t know why people think every little thing their organization does needs a separate top-level domain. It really makes much more sense for an organization to pick a single canonical top-level domain and decree that all projects of the organization get a sub-domain (or even just a directory e.g. https://grt.ca/easygo).
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