St. Patrick's celebrations

[jeffster]

Where is your data that says BluesFest and Oktoberfest contribute as many hospitalizations?

I can tell you for one, the BluesFest, which I have worked at several times, has had very few issues. The staff must be SmartServe certified. Not to say that it isn't without any issues, and we actually had an issue with one of the performers the one year. Any serious issues were usually related to the heat, not alcohol (though alcohol can be a factor, obviously), but in some cases, kids might have gotten heatstroke in a non-alcohol area (so not related to booze at all).

One of the big differences between something like an unsanctioned street party and an organized event is crowd control -- you have counters at the entrance to count people coming in and out, and you must limit the number for whatever the permit has determined is safe, could be 500, could be 1,000, depending on the size. No entry for individuals that are intoxicated.

I think the one year we had 3 alcohol related calls, including the performer. The year before that (the Rib and Beer Fest), we had a few extra calls, and it turned out that the one vendor (who I won't name) wasn't following SmartServe guidelines, and this happens when the vendor hires mostly 19-21 year old females looking for big tips with a 23 year-old male manager to oversee everything. They, this is, the vendor, were barred (pardon that lame pun) from the ground the following year. I recall that vendor, as after I was done working the event, they invited me over for 'free' beer. I only took one, seeing that I had to drive home, but found it usually suspect for them to be doing that, then realized when you have very young people running the show, they tend to throw way more caution into the wind. Though I really liked these kids, super friendly...

[Pheidippides]

I was able to find some local ED visit data by week for all causes.
 
The data captured is designed for tracking the flu, so it only available from September to April, but it does have a denominator for total number of ED visits. As a result I was only able to compare St Patrick’s Day to Oktoberfest, but not to BluesFest or RibFest. It also didn’t have a numerator specific to alcohol toxicity so all cause visits will have be a proxy.
 
What I found for 2018 was that during the week of St Patrick’s day ED visits went up nearly 30%, and during Oktoberfest they were essentially unchanged.
 
For the two weeks prior to St Patrick’s day there were 2,177 (Feb 25-Mar 03) and 2,191 (Mar 04-Mar 10) ED visits or an average of 2,184 per week.
 
The week of St Patrick’s day (Mar 11-Mar 17), which also happened to be March Break when ED visits should be lower with many people out of town, had 2,781 ED visits; or more than 27% higher than the previous two weeks’ average.
 
If you were to get data by day-by-day you would see even greater differences (i.e. a regular Saturday in March vs. the Saturday of St. Patrick’s day) because the single day peak visits due to St. Patrick’s day is being averaged out over 7 days.
 
Also, if you were to narrow the counts to only visits for alcohol toxicity I suspect that the per cent change for St Patrick’s day would be even greater.
 
Compare that to Oktoberfest (Oct 5-13). For the two weeks prior to Oktoberfest, which included a long weekend when ED’s are usually busier than usual because clinics and doctor’s offices are closed for the holiday, had 3,505 (Sep 16-22) and 3,425 (Sep 23-29) ED visits respectively; an average of 3,465 ED visits per week. The two weeks of Oktoberfest had 3,442 (Sep 30-Oct-6) and 3,468 (Oct 7-13) ED visits; an average of 3,455 ED visits. That’s a decrease of 0.3% in total ED visits.

[jeffster]

I was able to find some local ED visit data by week for all causes.
 
The data captured is designed for tracking the flu, so it only available from September to April, but it does have a denominator for total number of ED visits. As a result I was only able to compare St Patrick’s Day to Oktoberfest, but not to BluesFest or RibFest. It also didn’t have a numerator specific to alcohol toxicity so all cause visits will have be a proxy.
 
What I found for 2018 was that during the week of St Patrick’s day ED visits went up nearly 30%, and during Oktoberfest they were essentially unchanged.
 
For the two weeks prior to St Patrick’s day there were 2,177 (Feb 25-Mar 03) and 2,191 (Mar 04-Mar 10) ED visits or an average of 2,184 per week.
 
The week of St Patrick’s day (Mar 11-Mar 17), which also happened to be March Break when ED visits should be lower with many people out of town, had 2,781 ED visits; or more than 27% higher than the previous two weeks’ average.
 
If you were to get data by day-by-day you would see even greater differences (i.e. a regular Saturday in March vs. the Saturday of St. Patrick’s day) because the single day peak visits due to St. Patrick’s day is being averaged out over 7 days.
 
Also, if you were to narrow the counts to only visits for alcohol toxicity I suspect that the per cent change for St Patrick’s day would be even greater.
 
Compare that to Oktoberfest (Oct 5-13). For the two weeks prior to Oktoberfest, which included a long weekend when ED’s are usually busier than usual because clinics and doctor’s offices are closed for the holiday, had 3,505 (Sep 16-22) and 3,425 (Sep 23-29) ED visits respectively; an average of 3,465 ED visits per week. The two weeks of Oktoberfest had 3,442 (Sep 30-Oct-6) and 3,468 (Oct 7-13) ED visits; an average of 3,455 ED visits. That’s a decrease of 0.3% in total ED visits.

So the costs for the St. Paddy's party is substantially higher than anyone has suggested so far. The only number I had was policing being over $500,000...the costs in the hospital must be extraordinary. This isn't good because it puts so many other people at risk due to staffing shortages.

If anything, the City of Waterloo and Laurier probably should spend a few million dollars every year to set up an onsite fully staffed hospital to deal with the patrons of the St. Paddy's event.

[Spokes]

The issue with the organized event is you also assume that students would want to attend it. One issue with organized events is that students now have to buy only the alcohol provided.  Bring your own won't fly.

And it's not just that, if it's organized, the less mature won't attend (because they're 18 years old). So even if you sold beer at cost, which they could do, a good chunk of students couldn't participate (basically any student born between September 1 and December 31 of first year university).

I hadn't even thought of age.  That's a big one.  If you have a late december birthday, you're not 19 until your fourth semester of school!

[Coke6pk]

Where is your data that says BluesFest and Oktoberfest contribute as many hospitalizations?

I can tell you for one, the BluesFest, which I have worked at several times, has had very few issues. The staff must be SmartServe certified. Not to say that it isn't without any issues, and we actually had an issue with one of the performers the one year. Any serious issues were usually related to the heat, not alcohol (though alcohol can be a factor, obviously), but in some cases, kids might have gotten heatstroke in a non-alcohol area (so not related to booze at all).

One of the big differences between something like an unsanctioned street party and an organized event is crowd control -- you have counters at the entrance to count people coming in and out, and you must limit the number for whatever the permit has determined is safe, could be 500, could be 1,000, depending on the size. No entry for individuals that are intoxicated.

I think the one year we had 3 alcohol related calls, including the performer. The year before that (the Rib and Beer Fest), we had a few extra calls, and it turned out that the one vendor (who I won't name) wasn't following SmartServe guidelines, and this happens when the vendor hires mostly 19-21 year old females looking for big tips with a 23 year-old male manager to oversee everything. They, this is, the vendor, were barred (pardon that lame pun) from  the ground the following year.  I recall that vendor, as after I was done working the event, they invited me over for 'free' beer. I only took one, seeing that I had to drive home, but found it usually suspect for them to be doing that, then realized when you have very young people running the show, they tend to throw way more caution into the wind. Though I really liked these kids, super friendly...

BluesFest and Oktoberfest also pay for (a majority) of the police presence.  Ezra pays nothing.

There is no easy answer, and absolutely NO answer that will make everyone happy.  The University and City will never organize.  Liability costs would be phenomenal, and students at this party are not interested in following the rules that would be laid out on a liquor licence. 

Coke

[darts]

The region got what they want, a large policing cost with no questions on was that money spent actually effective/worth it/ or if they hired everyone they could to get the biggest pricetag p[possible. It probably includes all sorts of admin fees and overhead fees that would have incurred one way or the other.

[Spokes]

I don't follow. Why would the Region WANT that?

[jeffster]

I don't follow.  Why would the Region WANT that?

To push for extra officers and support staff. Something like Ezra is worth about 4 extra officers and a couple support staff (like admin). Events like Ezra are the tipping point for WRPS.

[Spokes]

Wouldn't it be the police union happy about an increase in officers though? The region just has to spend more money.

[tomh009]

I don't follow.  Why would the Region WANT that?

To push for extra officers and support staff. Something like Ezra is worth about 4 extra officers and a couple support staff (like admin). Events like Ezra are the tipping point for WRPS.

$500K might be enough for four officers. But not if you have to spend it all in one weekend on overtime pay.

I really don't see any reason why the region or WRPS would actually want to spend $500K policing the event.

[urbd]

To push for extra officers and support staff. Something like Ezra is worth about 4 extra officers and a couple support staff (like admin). Events like Ezra are the tipping point for WRPS.

$500K might be enough for four officers. But not if you have to spend it all in one weekend on overtime pay.

I really don't see any reason why the region or WRPS would actually want to spend $500K policing the event.

I'm loving the conspiracy tone this is taking!  

So we are saying that the police/region is letting it get this big on purpose to try to get more funding from (province? fed? taxes?) for more police staff and to make a few people richer? If you are suggesting a conspiracy then lay it out for us please.

[plam]

$500K might be enough for four officers. But not if you have to spend it all in one weekend on overtime pay.

I really don't see any reason why the region or WRPS would actually want to spend $500K policing the event.

I'm loving the conspiracy tone this is taking!  

So we are saying that the police/region is letting it get this big on purpose to try to get more funding from (province? fed? taxes?) for more police staff and to make a few people richer? If you are suggesting a conspiracy then lay it out for us please.

The Region isn't just one entity, though. Different sub-organizations have different incentives. One can imagine that WRPS might want to increase its budget, for instance.

[jeffster]

Wouldn't it be the police union happy about an increase in officers though?  The region just has to spend more money.

I don't think the region is happy. I'm not even sure why that was said. But if the police can get extra officers because of things like this, they then can turn around (after getting the budget) and then shut it down.

I still believe, tho, that this should be taken care of by the City of Waterloo and Laurier 100%. The region can do a charge back the city and university and they'll have it cleared up very quickly.

[Pheidippides]

Waterloo Regional Police Chief pleads for 47 new officers
"I've never viewed myself as an alarmist," Larkin told the board.

"....17 per cent of the service's total workforce not working at full capacity, impacting front line policing."


The cost breakdown for St Patrick's day for the WRPS was:
Waterloo Regional Police Services — $330,000
Overtime: $163,000 (49.4%)
Planning and analysis: $64,000 (19.4%)
Logistics: $44,000 (13.3%)
External Policing: $41,000 (12.4%)
Non-overtime wages: $18,000 (5.5%)

[Spokes]

Wouldn't it be the police union happy about an increase in officers though?  The region just has to spend more money.

I don't think the region is happy. I'm not even sure why that was said.  But if the police can get extra officers because of things like this, they then can turn around (after getting the budget) and then shut it down.

I still believe, tho, that this should be taken care of by the City of Waterloo and Laurier 100%. The region can do a charge back the city and university and they'll have it cleared up very quickly.

To go a step further, why should the city pay?  Because it's happening there?  This one's on the universities