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Funding roads (taxes, user fees etc)
#31
Yeah but it's never free Big Grin
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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#32
And on our amusement park digression, I'm a huge fan of the free virtual queueing / Disney FastPass type things. Having people stand in line for a ride isn't really an efficient way to manage usage of the park and with technology we can do a lot better for everyone.
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#33
(12-20-2016, 02:27 PM)Canard Wrote: Yeah but it's never free Big Grin

Hah, true.
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#34
(12-20-2016, 02:28 PM)SammyOES2 Wrote: And on our amusement park digression, I'm a huge fan of the free virtual queueing / Disney FastPass type things.  Having people stand in line for a ride isn't really an efficient way to manage usage of the park and with technology we can do a lot better for everyone.

Disney's approach (with FastPass), I think, is the best for fairness and managing guest satisfaction; everyone can use it, because it's free to all guests - it has limits and can't be abused (you can't get another FastPass until your current one expires), and you still have to wait. You can just be out doing other things.

FastPass+, on the other hand... it's just too complicated!
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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#35
(12-20-2016, 11:55 AM)SammyOES2 Wrote: ijmorlan: "Since the road is being paid for by everybody’s tax dollars, it’s perfectly reasonable for us to argue for efficiency improvements, even if it causes some inconvenience to those currently receiving the benefits of free roads. Beggars can’t be choosers … except when it comes to free roads, apparently."

I pay thousands of dollars in gas tax.  Tens of thousands of dollars in property, income, and consumption taxes that go towards road development.  Frankly, your continued use of "free roads" just tells me you're either disingenuous on this issue or not able to accept facts that contradict your beliefs.  Either way, I don't really see much use continuing a discussion with you.

Your point about gas tax is valid. It functions as an approximate partial pay-per-use for the road system.

But talking about property, income, and consumption taxes as if it represents you paying for your road use is incorrect. The whole point I’m making is that the general taxpayer pays for most road construction, regardless of how much they use the road network. Motorists don’t pay for the roads (except for the 407); everybody does. Since there is a large overlap between “motorists” and “everybody” it’s a bit hard to see what is really going on. But motorists do in fact get (almost) free roads. And they pay the same no matter when they choose to drive.

If we tolled all the roads, property, income, and/or consumption taxes could go down correspondingly. Or the money could be spent on other things. But suggesting that tolls are a tax grab is incorrect and nonsensical. Tolls are almost a prototypical example of a charge which is not a tax.

Again, you have no right to have the populace at large pay for enough roads for you to drive, congestion-free, at rush hour. It’s just an absurd expectation.

I think a lot of this would be much clearer if motorists were a smaller fraction of society. It would be obvious they are being paid for by everybody else. But in this time and place, the “everybody else” is actually a fairly small minority (doesn’t even include me, although I rarely use a private vehicle to get to and from work).
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#36
...But most of Canada does.
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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#37
(12-20-2016, 02:50 PM)ijmorlan Wrote: ...
I think a lot of this would be much clearer if motorists were a smaller fraction of society. It would be obvious they are being paid for by everybody else. But in this time and place, the “everybody else” is actually a fairly small minority (doesn’t even include me, although I rarely use a private vehicle to get to and from work).

I'm not sure it doesn't. The problem is, even in a place where most take transit, even like NYC. Those making many of the decisions continue to drive.

This is even more apparent in Toronto. That's why I'm so surprised by the tolling plan.
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#38
Something being "subsidized" isn't the same as something being "free".  This is just basic English.

If two people X and Y pay for service S but only X uses S, it's just completely wrong to say that X gets S for free.  It makes absolutely no sense.
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#39
ijmorlan, let's go with this. Why don't you post a source showing that motorists get "(almost) free roads"?

I showed one showing there's 65-85% cost recovery.
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#40
(12-20-2016, 03:16 PM)SammyOES2 Wrote: ijmorlan, let's go with this.  Why don't you post a source showing that motorists get "(almost) free roads"?

I showed one showing there's 65-85% cost recovery.

Some of the glaring issues with that report:
It considers Vehicle Registration Taxes, which in places like Toronto no longer exist, and which are not inconsequential amounts of money.
While some suggest that we need roads and should subsidize them in order to have transport trucks able to deliver goods to anywhere in the country, this report taxes the other view, wherein we should seek to put a huge proportion of road costs onto those vehicles due to their weight. Yes, it does increase wear, but we aren't building 10 lanes of 401 here in the region to accommodate those vehicles.
They consider licensing and traffic violations as sources of revenue intended for roads, which is not how we apply things in practice, nor is it good practice.

Most glaringly, they consider your purchase of a vehicle as a form of payment for the road. Compare that their view of the combined cost to society of infrastructure, pollution, congestion, and accidents is 18.5 cents per kilometer driven, but a whopping 45 cents of "costs to society which drivers pay for" is the cost of the vehicle itself, which of course is paid for by you. This is NOT payment for roads, this is your payment for your vehicle.

Put it this way... you only cover 65-85% of the costs when you include the cost of your car in the "societal burden" costs package, and make that responsible for (45 / (45 + 7) x 100% =) 86% of the costs to society, you are massively overstating what drivers actually pay.
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