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Plane vs. Train vs. Car
#1
Three friends take different modes of transportation from Downtown Kitchener to Downtown Toronto to compare.



A financial analysis was also posted: https://medium.com/@colin_36583/plane-vs...e0d66acf6d
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#2
(12-15-2017, 02:02 PM)robdrimmie Wrote: Three friends take different modes of transportation from Downtown Kitchener to Downtown Toronto to compare.

A financial analysis was also posted: https://medium.com/@colin_36583/plane-vs...e0d66acf6d

Interesting, thanks!
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#3
Interesting video.  Thanks.

I've gone to Toronto by car, bus, train. plane and hitchhiking (when I was younger).  My prefered method is to go by bus or train and it's usually the bus because they are more frequent. My least favourite way of getting to Toronto is by car.  I would take FlyGTA all the time but the price is a bit high.
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#4
You saw it here first.  CBC now has a story on this.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitchener-...-1.4457840
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#5
(12-15-2017, 02:02 PM)robdrimmie Wrote: Three friends take different modes of transportation from Downtown Kitchener to Downtown Toronto to compare.



A financial analysis was also posted: https://medium.com/@colin_36583/plane-vs...e0d66acf6d

One thing I that I disagreed with: car expenses. They're absolutely maxing it out and looking at it strictly form a business point of view. Also, if you're going to DT Toronto from DT Kitchener, why a transponder, you're moving AWAY from DT Toronto when you use a transponder? Kitchener City Hall to Toronto City Hall is 108KM. If I had to run down to Toronto for some reason, I'll park at the TTC parking for Kipling Station. Parking there is $6 ($7) savings. No Transponder charges. Travel is 92 KM (my address, which is slightly further than DT Kitchener). Real gas costs should be $20 or so, if heavy traffic the whole way, otherwise it would be less. TTC charges would be $7 (two trips) I think. So $33 in total. Of course, wear and tear on the car, but it's not that much. Someone that is working FT in DT Toronto, milage is NOT reimbursed.

What was the point of the article anyway? To discourage the use of the airport?

The other issue I took with the article was that fact the there were issues with the plane -- since the two factors they were looking at; travel time and cost. Had things gone as planned, the plane would have arrived much sooner than either car or bus.
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#6
I didn't understand the logic of the transponder either.
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#7
Re the transponder especially if it is a one time business trip, makes absolutely no sense.
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#8
(12-20-2017, 07:03 PM)rangersfan Wrote: Re the transponder especially if it is a one time business trip, makes absolutely no sense.

What transponder are you talking about?  For the 407?  It is absolutely possible that it is faster to take the 407 to bypass traffic jams on 401 between the 407 and the 410 (or sometimes even the 427 if things are especially bad).  Knowing what traffic looks like there is key, but it could easily be 5-15 minutes faster.  Whether that's worth your dollars or not is up to you.

As for "real" gas costs, "real" costs include maintenance and wear and tear on your car, it isn't "not that much", it's a real dollar value which the mileage number is meant to include.  It's clearly an average, which will be more for some cars, less for others, but  no less real.

The point of the article seemed like a very genuine evaluation of all options.  The plane was expected to win, and would have if not for the trouble, I think the lesson from that is simply that there are no sure things in getting to Toronto.

I too have done the drive to the subway option, and it's pretty good, but traffic between here and the closest subway station or even Go station is getting pretty terrible too.
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#9
The driver probably took the 407 to bypass Mississauga - and possibly the 401 north of Toronto if they took the DVP into downtown instead of the 427/Gardiner. It wasn't a transponder expense; it was a no-transponder expense.
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#10
I've recently discovered Winston Churchill > Argentia > Derry > Hurontario as a potential bypass of the 401, but traffic needs to be really backed up to make it worthwhile as it takes an extra 10 minutes over non-rush hour speeds on the 401, but generally the lights seem to be reasonably synchronized and a speed limit of 70-80 along most of the stretch.

And then there's Google's suggestion for a bypass coming WB. Get off at Hurontario, drive a block, make a U-Turn, and get back on the 401 and somehow you will save 9 minutes. No idea what it was smoking that day.
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#11
(12-20-2017, 09:37 PM)timio Wrote: I've recently discovered Winston Churchill > Argentia > Derry > Hurontario as a potential bypass of the 401, but traffic needs to be really backed up to make it worthwhile as it takes an extra 10 minutes over non-rush hour speeds on the 401, but generally the lights seem to be reasonably synchronized and a speed limit of 70-80 along most of the stretch.

And then there's Google's suggestion for a bypass coming WB.  Get off at Hurontario, drive a block, make a U-Turn, and get back on the 401 and somehow you will save 9 minutes. No idea what it was smoking that day.

It is true... It works,  because you drive in the new exits lane and bypass all the traffic...
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#12
I found this bit interesting: "When taking the train, you can be productive for one hour until the masses flood the train and it becomes challenging to do anything other than juggle your bags."

I can see the logic. On a train, especially when "the masses flood it" (ugh), you're not as productive as when you're in whatever your special place is, in a flow, with no distractions. But I think it's reasonable to say the entire train trip is- or can be- productive. Coming from Kitchener, we're lucky enough to be guaranteed seats, so one can check one's calendar and e-mails, even if it's not practical to expect to get creative work done. And even being able to rest (as opposed to focusing on driving) is productive if it means you can be more focused for the meeting you're spending all these resources to attend. They did allude to that part.

Every time we see one of these comparisons, someone inevitably feels the need to point out that their twelve-year-old beater, or their new PHEV, doesn't cost x to drive to Toronto, or the incremental cost is the better one to use, or whatever. The CRA rate is designed to reflect actual costs across a wide stratum of the driving population. It's what's reasonable to use. Anyone who thinks it's way too high probably isn't thinking much about the depreciation on something that costs at least $15,000 new.
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#13
The way I think of it: I have the car anyway, and insurance is a fixed yearly cost. So, it’s just fuel, which is almost nothing in a Hybrid (or EV). I’ll own the car until it doesn’t work anymore, so depreciation isn’t a thing. Maintenance, sure - which is pennies per km on a Toyota hybrid. So, there you go. Tongue

I like the idea of taking the train but at $35 bucks a day I’d really have to think about it if I had a parking deal at work. If it were $20 a day for parking in TO, sure, I’d always take the train.

(I’d probably just always take the train even if it’s way more expensive because I love trains Smile )
For daily ion construction updates, photos and general urban rail news, follow me on twitter! @Canardiain
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#14
I know this is a conversation that has gone around in circles before, but I thought I'd add my data point.

When we were shopping for our current vehicle (a Mazda5), I grabbed all of the used listings for our model on Kijiji and Auto Trader in Ontario and did a regression analysis looking at several factors that had a significant effect on the vehicle price.

On average, one model year newer was worth about $990, an automatic transmission was worth about $1815 more, the higher trim level had a $1690 premium and each additional kilometre reduced the value by $0.046 (this was based on a couple hundred data points and aligns pretty well with my intuition, so I use this as my marginal depreciation cost).

Over the first 35,000 km, maintenance costs have been $0.050/km. Unfortunately, I have not gotten as good of mileage as I hoped (probably due to driving mostly in town) and so fuel costs have averaged $0.102/km. I treat everything else as a fixed cost, i.e. required just to own the car (this includes depreciation due to model year, insurance, registration, parking, the winter rims I bought). So my actual marginal cost per km is about $0.046 + $0.050 + $0.102 = $0.198.

(For me, the fixed cost actually works out to about $0.161/km based on ~$2250/year and 14,000 km/year), so total cost is about $0.359/km. But the relevant number to this discussion is the marginal cost of $0.198/km)
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#15
Let's just say that one of the biggest costs is that point at which one buys a car. I have avoided that expense over the decades, and the benefit of not having any of those costs has been a massive financial windfall for me. Some people will need to buy a car for one reason or another, but when you can avoid it, it's absolutely one of the best financial investments you can make. Unlike the house-as-a-forced-retirement-savings versus retirement-investing-the-money-saved-by-renting, not buying a vehicle and paying its costs is an absolute win against the endless car vacuum and depreciation. None of these things is truly in isolation, and these days it's only really the first residence and job post-education that determines whether someone buys a car or not.
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