GO Transit

[jeffster]

Can't see many using this service to commute from London to Toronto. And by that, do many commute to Toronto now in general?

[tomh009]

There are a fair number of people who do (or did, at least) commute to Toronto by GO, daily. And that's the same two hours. At least some of these people have cars but would prefer to relax on the train instead of stressing out behind the steering wheel.

And we used to have a person on our team (here in Kitchener) who did a 2h reverse commute daily, using the GO bus service.

I wouldn't do it, but I'm not everyone. People make different choices about where to work and where to live, and their priorities aren't always the same as mine. But, that doesn't mean those people don't exist or that they don't need commuting options, too.

Sure, I outright refuse to drive to Toronto, it's too stressful and the traffic makes it take too long. The same is not true of London -> KW. I do it regularly to visit family, there's generally no congestion, and it takes all of 1:15 to do it by car.

So while yes, there are people who commute 2 hours into/out of Toronto, and plenty of people, including myself will take the train for that commute, the same will not hold for London because the conditions are different.

I fully understand your thinking. But I refer back to my comment above: different people make different choices. I do agree that fewer people would take the train to Kitchener because the drive is easier, but it may still not apply to everyone.

[danbrotherston]

[ac3r]

It's definitely going to fail. Whoever it was at Metrolinx, sitting around a board meeting table, that said "yeah, this could be a great success, let's try it out" needs to be fired. Metrolinx is not always bad, but they sure as hell make a lot of questionable decisions.

[taylortbb]

It's definitely going to fail. Whoever it was at Metrolinx, sitting around a board meeting table, that said "yeah, this could be a great success, let's try it out" needs to be fired. Metrolinx is not always bad, but they sure as hell make a lot of questionable decisions.

The rationale I can see for this is that it's a precursor to buying the rest of the CN north mainline. The first service to Kitchener was really painfully slow, awkwardly timed, and only 2 trains/day. Current service isn't great, but it's definitely better than it was.

If Metrolinx bought the tracks from Kitchener to London, and brought them up to the standard they're currently doing for Kitchener to Georgetown, it could be a good service. The north mainline isn't any longer, just slower due to poor track quality, but it hits a number of larger population centres the Via service on the south mainline doesn't.

[danbrotherston]

It's definitely going to fail. Whoever it was at Metrolinx, sitting around a board meeting table, that said "yeah, this could be a great success, let's try it out" needs to be fired. Metrolinx is not always bad, but they sure as hell make a lot of questionable decisions.

The rationale I can see for this is that it's a precursor to buying the rest of the CN north mainline. The first service to Kitchener was really painfully slow, awkwardly timed, and only 2 trains/day. Current service isn't great, but it's definitely better than it was.

If Metrolinx bought the tracks from Kitchener to London, and brought them up to the standard they're currently doing for Kitchener to Georgetown, it could be a good service. The north mainline isn't any longer, just slower due to poor track quality, but it hits a number of larger population centres the Via service on the south mainline doesn't.

The the south line hits more population, North line hits Stratford (50k), KW (500k), Guelph (100k), Georgetown (50k), Brampton (600k), but the south line hits Woodstock (50k), Brantford (100k), Oakville (200k), Mississauga (800k), Hamilton (600k), Burlington (200k).

The problem with London is not that there isn't an opportunity to improve service, it's that the service proposed is significantly worse than existing options, and doesn't really make sense for anyone--even someone without a car.

[Bytor]

[Bytor]

Timing it for the London→Toronto commuters is ridiculous, though. Instead of making it an extension to the 7:32am trip from Kitchener, make it part of the 8:39am and they'd get more riders, I bet.

[jamincan]

I think part of the rationale for the scheduling is to space the trips from the current Via train.

[tomh009]

Timing it for the London→Toronto commuters is ridiculous, though. Instead of making it an extension to the 7:32am trip from Kitchener, make it part of the 8:39am and they'd get more riders, I bet.

Yes. Not only is the planned morning trip very early, but doing the return trip implies a 10h work day, which most people will not be keen on.

[ac3r]

The the south line hits more population, North line hits Stratford (50k), KW (500k), Guelph (100k), Georgetown (50k), Brampton (600k), but the south line hits Woodstock (50k), Brantford (100k), Oakville (200k), Mississauga (800k), Hamilton (600k), Burlington (200k).

FWIW, we're not at 500'000 people. The Region of Waterloo officially records our population as 630'000, which is visible on most Welcome To... signs around our periphery. I wouldn't doubt if it's even higher than that now since those were updated in 2019 if I recall.

[danbrotherston]

The the south line hits more population, North line hits Stratford (50k), KW (500k), Guelph (100k), Georgetown (50k), Brampton (600k), but the south line hits Woodstock (50k), Brantford (100k), Oakville (200k), Mississauga (800k), Hamilton (600k), Burlington (200k).

FWIW, we're not at 500'000 people. The Region of Waterloo officially records our population as 630'000, which is visible on most Welcome To... signs around our periphery. I wouldn't doubt if it's even higher than that now since those were updated in 2019 if I recall.

The region is 630k, but our urban population is closer to 500k, given that the other cites I listed weren't metro area populations, I think that makes it a more accurate comparison.

But it doesn't change the point anyway.

[tomh009]

The key question, though, regardless of the population, is where would London residents want to take a train to, and how often? Are there people in London commuting (near/daily) to Hamilton, Burlington or Oakville? Or would Kitchener be a more popular option?

The population figures will not be the whole story, as I don't expect a London-Brampton trip, for example, to attract a lot of pax in spite of Brampton's large population.

I should hope that GO has done their market research to determine where people would want to get to (from London) but I have no actual data.

[danbrotherston]

The key question, though, regardless of the population, is where would London residents want to take a train to, and how often? Are there people in London commuting (near/daily) to Hamilton, Burlington or Oakville? Or would Kitchener be a more popular option?

The population figures will not be the whole story, as I don't expect a London-Brampton trip, for example, to attract a lot of pax in spite of Brampton's large population.

I should hope that GO has done their market research to determine where people would want to get to (from London) but I have no actual data.

I do not get the sense this decision is based in market research.

[tomh009]

The key question, though, regardless of the population, is where would London residents want to take a train to, and how often? Are there people in London commuting (near/daily) to Hamilton, Burlington or Oakville? Or would Kitchener be a more popular option?

The population figures will not be the whole story, as I don't expect a London-Brampton trip, for example, to attract a lot of pax in spite of Brampton's large population.

I should hope that GO has done their market research to determine where people would want to get to (from London) but I have no actual data.

I do not get the sense this decision is based in market research.

Or the selection of the route was based on market research -- and then they ignored the research when they set the schedule.