General Urban Kitchener Updates and Rumours

[ac3r]

I guess my point is that your unpleasant is another person's enjoyment.  Everyone views life through a different lense...

A good way to look at it. Letterist International and Situationist International developed the concept of psychogeography/dérive/détournement, which itself grew out of Dadaism and surrealism as a way to explore urban environments. Every person interprets walking in urban spaces differently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychogeography

Victoria Street is not a place I would want to walk very often, but I'm able to appreciate it when I walk along it and view things through a theoretical lense like this. My first thesis in architecture school involved this sort of stuff, so it makes walking in seemingly horrible areas actually interesting to me. It is, indeed, part of actual big city life no matter what. You're obligated to accept it all, even the parts you don't like.

[jamincan]

Also, while Victoria isn't a great street now, more buildings sprouting up along it will only help it transform into a better street - more frequent pedestrian crossings, slower traffic, and better streetscape.

[dtkvictim]

Also, while Victoria isn't a great street now, more buildings sprouting up along it will only help it transform into a better street - more frequent pedestrian crossings, slower traffic, and better streetscape.

While that could happen, I don't think it's a given. Increased density along Victoria could just as easily make it more unpleasant (at least, as we're discussing here, subjectively). North American cities are full wide, high speed roads with narrow sidewalks, blocked in by towers, and personally I despise that environment.

[danbrotherston]

I love to walk around DTK and other areas for that matter.  When I walk, I don't have music in my ears disconecting me from the souroundings,  I walk with attention to the traffic, vehicles, other pedestrians, and often cyclists who too cause concern. I do this with a purpose, to arrive at my destination safely just as I would if I was operating a vehicle.  When I walk in these areas that you declare are unpleasant, I don't see it that way at all.  I see, hear and smell the many different experiences which I find enjoyable.  It is these experiences that I want to encounter when I go walking.

If I want peace and tranquility, I go for a hike on the Bruce Trail or other designated conservation/naturL areas.

I guess my point is that your unpleasant is another person's enjoyment.  Everyone views life through a different lense...

*Rolls eyes* don't try to tell me with a straight face that walking the curbfaced sidewalk next to five lanes of high speed traffic is pleasant. 

And frankly the implicit whining about headphone distracted peds can fuck right off. 

Lemme be blunt here, I should be able to listen to music and walk in our downtown safely. And I should damn well be able to have tranquil places to walk closer than the Bruce Peninsula--and we absolutely do, you just need to walk to the wealthy neighbourhoods.

[danbrotherston]

Also, while Victoria isn't a great street now, more buildings sprouting up along it will only help it transform into a better street - more frequent pedestrian crossings, slower traffic, and better streetscape.

More buildings won't make it better. Removing traffic will..and there's no guarantee we will do that.

And no, I don't mind people or bikes one bit. It's the cars and only the cars that are the problem. Nothing wrong with a busy city, but a congested, noisy, polluted, dangerous one is empirically bad. That isn't an opinion or a matter of perspective.

[tomh009]

And I should damn well be able to have tranquil places to walk closer than the Bruce Peninsula--and we absolutely do, you just need to walk to the wealthy neighbourhoods.

Wealthy neighbourhoods? Like Schneider Creek, Cedar Hill and East Ward, for a few examples?

[danbrotherston]

And I should damn well be able to have tranquil places to walk closer than the Bruce Peninsula--and we absolutely do, you just need to walk to the wealthy neighbourhoods.

Wealthy neighbourhoods? Like Schneider Creek, Cedar Hill and East Ward, for a few examples?

Everything is relative, but the neighbourhoods with the least traffic and most traffic calming generally strongly correlated with wealth.

But I digress, that wasn't the thing about his comment which got me the most worked up.

[Rainrider22]

I love to walk around DTK and other areas for that matter.  When I walk, I don't have music in my ears disconecting me from the souroundings,  I walk with attention to the traffic, vehicles, other pedestrians, and often cyclists who too cause concern. I do this with a purpose, to arrive at my destination safely just as I would if I was operating a vehicle.  When I walk in these areas that you declare are unpleasant, I don't see it that way at all.  I see, hear and smell the many different experiences which I find enjoyable.  It is these experiences that I want to encounter when I go walking.

If I want peace and tranquility, I go for a hike on the Bruce Trail or other designated conservation/naturL areas.

I guess my point is that your unpleasant is another person's enjoyment.  Everyone views life through a different lense...

*Rolls eyes* don't try to tell me with a straight face that walking the curbfaced sidewalk next to five lanes of high speed traffic is pleasant. 

And frankly the implicit whining about headphone distracted peds can fuck right off. 

Lemme be blunt here, I should be able to listen to music and walk in our downtown safely. And I should damn well be able to have tranquil places to walk closer than the Bruce Peninsula--and we absolutely do, you just need to walk to the wealthy neighbourhoods.

You always roll your eyes and tell someone to fuck off when they don't agree with you.  Your welcome to meet in person sometime and tell me to fuck off to my face..

[danbrotherston]

*Rolls eyes* don't try to tell me with a straight face that walking the curbfaced sidewalk next to five lanes of high speed traffic is pleasant. 

And frankly the implicit whining about headphone distracted peds can fuck right off. 

Lemme be blunt here, I should be able to listen to music and walk in our downtown safely. And I should damn well be able to have tranquil places to walk closer than the Bruce Peninsula--and we absolutely do, you just need to walk to the wealthy neighbourhoods.

You always roll your eyes and tell someone to fuck off when they don't agree with you.  Your welcome to meet in person sometime and tell me to fuck off to my face..

You wouldn't even be able to hear me if I said it while on Victoria St.

But you're welcome to apologize for suggesting that listening to headphones means you aren't paying attention to your surroundings.

[jamincan]

You always roll your eyes and tell someone to fuck off when they don't agree with you.  Your welcome to meet in person sometime and tell me to fuck off to my face..

You wouldn't even be able to hear me if I said it while on Victoria St.

But you're welcome to apologize for suggesting that listening to headphones means you aren't paying attention to your surroundings.

You're putting words in his mouth.

You do have a tendency to dismiss other people's experiences when they don't align with your own. It's not compelling rhetoric and it's not conducive to discourse or debate.

[plam]

Less is always more in terms of traffic noise, though. Traffic noise (and diesel fumes) do not make a positive contribution to a cityscape.

[cherrypark]

I love to walk around DTK and other areas for that matter.  When I walk, I don't have music in my ears disconecting me from the souroundings,  I walk with attention to the traffic, vehicles, other pedestrians, and often cyclists who too cause concern. I do this with a purpose, to arrive at my destination safely just as I would if I was operating a vehicle.  When I walk in these areas that you declare are unpleasant, I don't see it that way at all.  I see, hear and smell the many different experiences which I find enjoyable.  It is these experiences that I want to encounter when I go walking.

If I want peace and tranquility, I go for a hike on the Bruce Trail or other designated conservation/naturL areas.

I guess my point is that your unpleasant is another person's enjoyment.  Everyone views life through a different lense...

*Rolls eyes* don't try to tell me with a straight face that walking the curbfaced sidewalk next to five lanes of high speed traffic is pleasant. 

And frankly the implicit whining about headphone distracted peds can fuck right off. 

Lemme be blunt here, I should be able to listen to music and walk in our downtown safely. And I should damn well be able to have tranquil places to walk closer than the Bruce Peninsula--and we absolutely do, you just need to walk to the wealthy neighbourhoods.

This you?

You continue to disparage my home. What I am telling you is that I do not feel most of the condos in our city are "ugly" and that is a matter of opinion. You are welcome to believe that some buildings are ugly. But I am also allowed not to agree. And ultimately looks are a subjective matter.

The condo buildings we are discussing are not plain or austere developments, they nor do they look like the student housing development you highlighted. (Nor for that matter do most of the student developments look like that). They are simply modern buildings. You might not like the look of them, but I don't find them particularly problematic.

As for "if a building looks bad should it get approved"...WHO should decide if a building looks bad? Why do YOU get to make that decision and I don't? Why should ANYONE get to make that decision other than the person building it.

Make up your mind. Either you are open to differing opinions on what is acceptable in an urban environment and where people want a home in it or not.

I walk down Victoria St. every day. It's not as pleasant as it should be, and I absolutely think it could be improved in several ways, but why dismiss anyone who buys a home there to be near downtown, the park, and in a new development that - surprise! - might actually give the city a reason to start prioritizing your least favourite 'traffic sewer' differently?

If you put half the energy you do into arguing with everyone on the internet (and presumably real life) into constructive discussion, you might actually get somewhere with your advocacy, Dan.

[ac3r]

Also, while Victoria isn't a great street now, more buildings sprouting up along it will only help it transform into a better street - more frequent pedestrian crossings, slower traffic, and better streetscape.

While that could happen, I don't think it's a given. Increased density along Victoria could just as easily make it more unpleasant (at least, as we're discussing here, subjectively). North American cities are full wide, high speed roads with narrow sidewalks, blocked in by towers, and personally I despise that environment.

I could see it happening. The city/region knows Victoria is an ugly, old road. At the very least, the thing is in serious need of repaving. I think if more development gets approved along here, they'll eventually redesign the road, likely with some better bike infrastructure and improved streetscapes for pedestrians.

But it's a bit of a challenge. Victoria South is not as bad because it has a lot of single family homes facing it. It feels alright to walk down, if not a bit noisy in parts. South then turns into a 2 lane road at around Victoria/Walnut. But North is an arterial road connecting Highway 7 and it sees a lot of traffic from people going to and from Guelph. Weber and Lancaster also intersect with it, so essentially it's 3 heavily used arterial roads in one area with a lot of traffic converging. It would be nice if it could be reduced to two lanes with bike infrastructure and wider sidewalks for pedestrians, but with that amount of traffic, I'm not sure how much they could change without a long term attempt to reduce car dependency or appropriating some of the property on the businesses that face the road in order to add in bike lanes and wider sidewalks.

At the very least, reducing speed, repaving it and putting in new sidewalks, curbs, trees and plants could at least make it feel better (and with a bit of time, maybe some of the stripmalls and parking lots can get redeveloped). You could even install some nice metal guardrails to divide the sidewalk and road, something like the bottom right one with planters on it seen below. It may not actually provide a lot of safety, but it can at least help beautify what is otherwise an ugly, wide road:

[ac3r]

I get Dan's animosity to cars and car centric urban design. I hate them too. I would love to have our cities have subways, light rail, pleasing sidewalks, bike infrastructure and so much more. But in the end, people still need cars and it's naïve to think that we can magically do away with them and force everyone onto a train, bike or onto a sidewalk. You can't do that. We can improve what we have and attempt to reduce car dependency and increase transit options, but people are still going to need personal (or business) vehicles.

The best we can do is work with what we have and advocate for change in our urban environments. If it is a serious topic to your heart, attempt to fix things through advocacy, participating strongly in politics or even make it part of your career. I made architecture and planning my livelihood because I want to be able to directly change these things. Far too many people will have opinions and ideals, but then they may not really do much to tangibly change things, whether it is rallying people behind an issue, running for a council position, publishing writings and research into the topics or becoming directly involved in urban planning, engineering etc.

North America is what it is. We're not Europe or East Asia which has old dense cities, drastically different transit systems and different philosophies on urban design. We were (fortunately and unfortunately) heavily involved with the first combustion engines and gave birth to the car and cities as we know them today. That can change - through advancing rail systems and rethinking the way we design our cities (and we are doing that) - but it'll take a long time to achieve and will require a lot of people working towards it. It's one thing to watch people like Not Just Bikes romanticize Netherlands and hear him shit talk the country he is from (I do that a lot too when I compare us to Germany or France) but if we want to change our environments to resemble something we idealize, we need useful discussions and willpower to personally and collectively change things.

[Acitta]

I get Dan's animosity to cars and car centric urban design. I hate them too. I would love to have our cities have subways, light rail, pleasing sidewalks, bike infrastructure and so much more. But in the end, people still need cars and it's naïve to think that we can magically do away with them and force everyone onto a train, bike or onto a sidewalk. You can't do that. We can improve what we have and attempt to reduce car dependency and increase transit options, but people are still going to need personal (or business) vehicles.

The best we can do is work with what we have and advocate for change in our urban environments. If it is a serious topic to your heart, attempt to fix things through advocacy, participating strongly in politics or even make it part of your career. I made architecture and planning my livelihood because I want to be able to directly change these things. Far too many people will have opinions and ideals, but then they may not really do much to tangibly change things, whether it is rallying people behind an issue, running for a council position, publishing writings and research into the topics or becoming directly involved in urban planning, engineering etc.

North America is what it is. We're not Europe or East Asia which has old dense cities, drastically different transit systems and different philosophies on urban design. We were (fortunately and unfortunately) heavily involved with the first combustion engines and gave birth to the car and cities as we know them today. That can change - through advancing rail systems and rethinking the way we design our cities (and we are doing that) - but it'll take a long time to achieve and will require a lot of people working towards it. It's one thing to watch people like Not Just Bikes romanticize Netherlands and hear him shit talk the country he is from (I do that a lot too when I compare us to Germany or France) but if we want to change our environments to resemble something we idealize, we need useful discussions and willpower to personally and collectively change things.

We are not going to get there quickly, but at least we are making progress, especially in Waterloo Region. It requires a massive cultural shift, which can't happen overnight. The Netherlands became the cycling paradise that it is because of widespread cultural support. Even car drivers there also cycle and their families cycle to school or to the shops. Here, too many car drivers can't understand why anyone would want to cycle or walk anywhere, and get annoyed at the very existence of cyclists and pedestrians.