ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit

[danbrotherston]

Homer Watson was never a contender for this part of the LRT. I had mentioned it a few pages ago as a potential for another line in the far future and it has indeed been studied regarding the viability of that, but it was never going to be the route into Cambridge for this next phase of the LRT.

Homer Watson doesn't really have much density either. There are very few apartment blocks, most of them low rise. There are a couple townhouse projects, retirement communities, tons of single family homes, lots of low density industrial and lots of protected forest. Just glancing at the satellite maps from far out visually shows that there's not much out there, even 500 meters away from the road. It does not warrant an LRT right now, though in the far future it might be considered...but it's highly unlikely.

Sportsworld may not be a dense area either, but it was chosen because it serves a lot of industry (Toyota, Amazon, Loblaws, Dare Foods, ATS Automation and dozens of other businesses). It also has a nearby Highway 8 and 401 connection as well as the bus stops serving GRT and GO, all of which is important for commuters. It has lots of land that will eventually be redeveloped around the station node, namely the big box stores and some farm lands. It also provides the fastest and most direct way into Cambridge in regards to route headway. In regards to headway, it's a bit like driving: people want to use the route that gets them to their destination as fast as possible, which is why people hop on the Conestoga Expressway and avoid city streets.

Sportworld station serves NONE of those employers. It serves a BUS which could reach those employers, but that bus would connect to any LRT station built.  Same as the bus stops you mention, already have to move to the station, obviously would move to the station if it was on Homer-Watson.

We're kind of going around in circles here. The strongest argument people seem to be making for Sportsworld Dr. (the employers on Maple Grove and the bus transfer station) are not actually an argument for Sportsworld Dr.

I don't actually know if Homer-Watson was studied, if not, it should have been. The biggest challenge would have been orphaning Fairway Station.

[kalis0490]

whole discussing homer watson, we are forgetting about university ave /king st  to westmount.  it has the highest ppl/jobs per hectare and highest ridership with possible good intensification (weber/king etc)

A line there would have high ridership /mile than ion I would think

[ac3r]

Sportworld station serves NONE of those employers. It serves a BUS which could reach those employers, but that bus would connect to any LRT station built. 

I'm not sure why you think Sportsworld Station won't service those nearby businesses. The usefulness of an LRT is not based solely on how many things are within walking distance of each individual station. It also needs other connections to be successful. Each LRT station on the ION is serviced by buses which feed people to and from the stations closer to their destinations and that's pretty much standard for any transit system in the world.

Sportsworld Station will have bus connections to the 25, 67, 72, 203, 206 and 301 (the 67, 72 and 203 specifically serving the industrial areas). It will also be able to provide a connection for GO Transit buses and possibly Greyhound if they decide to stay in business. It will continue to have a park-and-ride lot which will be great for commuters using Highway 8 and 401 or even nearby residential areas. Redevelopment of the surrounding big box stores and perhaps the farmlands nearby will also increase ridership in due time.

It's easy to look at the area right now and think it is a bad decision to place a future LRT station, but it was deemed to be the most sensible place right now. Likewise, you can look at something like Blockline Station and think it's a strange place to have built a station, but as we all know there are plans to build massive condo towers beside it as well as plenty of other land that's just waiting for its turn to get redeveloped. It also has bus routes 6, 22, 26, 33 and the 201 feeding people from nearby homes, businesses, schools and recreational facilities. For the most part, any LRT, subway, commuter train etc is always reliant on buses (or other transportation) to provide coverage for the last mile for things that are slightly too far to walk to conveniently walk to.

[danbrotherston]

Sportworld station serves NONE of those employers. It serves a BUS which could reach those employers, but that bus would connect to any LRT station built. 

I'm not sure why you think Sportsworld Station won't service those nearby businesses. The usefulness of an LRT is not based solely on how many things are within walking distance of each individual station. It also needs other connections to be successful. Each LRT station on the ION is serviced by buses which feed people to and from the stations closer to their destinations and that's pretty much standard for any transit system in the world.

Sportsworld Station will have bus connections to the 25, 67, 72, 203, 206 and 301 (the 67, 72 and 203 specifically serving the industrial areas). It will also be able to provide a connection for GO Transit buses and possibly Greyhound if they decide to stay in business. It will continue to have a park-and-ride lot which will be great for commuters using Highway 8 and 401 or even nearby residential areas. Redevelopment of the surrounding big box stores and perhaps the farmlands nearby will also increase ridership in due time.

It's easy to look at the area right now and think it is a bad decision to place a future LRT station, but it was deemed to be the most sensible place right here. Likewise, you can look at something like Blockline Station and think it's a strange place to have built a station, but as we all know there are plans to build massive condo towers beside it as well as plenty of other land that's just waiting for its turn to get redeveloped. It also has bus routes 6, 22, 26, 33 and the 201 feeding people from nearby homes, businesses, schools and recreational facilities. For the most part, any LRT, subway, commuter train etc is always reliant on buses (or other transportation) to provide coverage for the last mile for things that are slightly too far to walk to conveniently walk to.

You literally included in your quote the part where I explicitly say it will service a BUS which services those destinations, so I'm not sure how you can be confused. But those buses would still service the LRT stations on Homer-Watson. So there is no difference, it's a 3 minute drive.

[jamincan]

I really don't see how you can say that bus service from Conestoga College on Homer Watson is no different than bus service from Sportsworld. The difference between a 5-min ride and a 15-min ride is substantial. You might think that the difference in ridership from that would be minimal, and by all means, make that argument and support it, but it is intellectually dishonest to continue to maintain that there is no difference.

[robdrimmie]

whole discussing homer watson, we are forgetting about university ave /king st  to westmount.  it has the highest ppl/jobs per hectare and highest ridership with possible good intensification (weber/king etc)

A line there would have high ridership /mile than ion I would think

As an observer to this discussion, my read is more that it is "what's the least shitty way to extend it to Cambridge", not "what's the way to increase utility for the most people in the Region". I think the question of whether or not extending it to Cambridge is the best next move would be a separate discussion (which I would also be interested in observing).

[danbrotherston]

whole discussing homer watson, we are forgetting about university ave /king st  to westmount.  it has the highest ppl/jobs per hectare and highest ridership with possible good intensification (weber/king etc)

A line there would have high ridership /mile than ion I would think

As an observer to this discussion, my read is more that it is "what's the least shitty way to extend it to Cambridge", not "what's the way to increase utility for the most people in the Region". I think the question of whether or not extending it to Cambridge is the best next move would be a separate discussion (which I would also be interested in observing).

This is entirely on point. And I have repeatedly pointed out that the choice to go to Cambridge was political, regardless of whether it is right or wrong, it was decided for political reasons.

[ac3r]

I really don't see how you can say that bus service from Conestoga College on Homer Watson is no different than bus service from Sportsworld. The difference between a 5-min ride and a 15-min ride is substantial. You might think that the difference in ridership from that would be minimal, and by all means, make that argument and support it, but it is intellectually dishonest to continue to maintain that there is no difference.

This is very true. A difference of a few minutes is still significant in many respects, namely for convenience of the riders but also the logistics of the trips. Cutting down extra trip distance also saves on the wear and tear of the infrastructure - the buses themselves, the bus stops and the roads they operate on (it may not seem significant, but an extra 6km each way wears things down). It even means more garbage cans to empty and bus stops to plow/salt in the winter.

Another issue using a hypothetical Conestoga College station if it did go down Homer Watson would be how do you get from there to the Fountain/Maple Grove area? You'd need routes 67, 72 and 203 to gun it down Highway 401 at high speeds.

[jeffster]

whole discussing homer watson, we are forgetting about university ave /king st  to westmount.  it has the highest ppl/jobs per hectare and highest ridership with possible good intensification (weber/king etc)

A line there would have high ridership /mile than ion I would think

As an observer to this discussion, my read is more that it is "what's the least shitty way to extend it to Cambridge", not "what's the way to increase utility for the most people in the Region". I think the question of whether or not extending it to Cambridge is the best next move would be a separate discussion (which I would also be interested in observing).

Good argument. There are more pressing needs elsewhere, but if one were to say lets build this and that before Cambridge, you'll get a lot of pissed off people south of the 401 (though I think some would be happy not having a train run through the city) -- either way, at that point, you can no longer ask Cambridge to help pay for anything. So it becomes a financial decision as well.

[dunkalunk]

I really don't see how you can say that bus service from Conestoga College on Homer Watson is no different than bus service from Sportsworld. The difference between a 5-min ride and a 15-min ride is substantial. You might think that the difference in ridership from that would be minimal, and by all means, make that argument and support it, but it is intellectually dishonest to continue to maintain that there is no difference.

This is very true. A difference of a few minutes is still significant in many respects, namely for convenience of the riders but also the logistics of the trips. Cutting down extra trip distance also saves on the wear and tear of the infrastructure - the buses themselves, the bus stops and the roads they operate on (it may not seem significant, but an extra 6km each way wears things down). It even means more garbage cans to empty and bus stops to plow/salt in the winter.

Another issue using a hypothetical Conestoga College station if it did go down Homer Watson would be how do you get from there to the Fountain/Maple Grove area? You'd need routes 67, 72 and 203 to gun it down Highway 401 at high speeds.

I'm also of the opinion that the route through Cambridge is too indirect if the intention is to get to downtown Galt.

[jamincan]

I really don't see how you can say that bus service from Conestoga College on Homer Watson is no different than bus service from Sportsworld. The difference between a 5-min ride and a 15-min ride is substantial. You might think that the difference in ridership from that would be minimal, and by all means, make that argument and support it, but it is intellectually dishonest to continue to maintain that there is no difference.

This is very true. A difference of a few minutes is still significant in many respects, namely for convenience of the riders but also the logistics of the trips. Cutting down extra trip distance also saves on the wear and tear of the infrastructure - the buses themselves, the bus stops and the roads they operate on (it may not seem significant, but an extra 6km each way wears things down). It even means more garbage cans to empty and bus stops to plow/salt in the winter.

Another issue using a hypothetical Conestoga College station if it did go down Homer Watson would be how do you get from there to the Fountain/Maple Grove area? You'd need routes 67, 72 and 203 to gun it down Highway 401 at high speeds.

I think in that hypothetical situation, the bus would like be routed via Fountain, not the 401.

[ac3r]

I'm also of the opinion that the route through Cambridge is too indirect if the intention is to get to downtown Galt.

That's not the main intention though, they want the LRT to service the most frequented areas of the city. That includes "downtown Preston" and a huge chunk of what is unfortunately just low-rise industrial and retail down Hespeler Road so the chosen route makes the most sense. I think by the middle of this century, we'll see a lot of that low-rise development get redeveloped into a new planned urban space.

I think in that hypothetical situation, the bus would like be routed via Fountain, not the 401.

Oops, yeah I forgot that Fountain went there. That would make a Homer Watson LRT terminus make even less sense as it would add 8 kilometers of extra driving for a bus to get to Maple Grove/Fountain, not to mention add even more wasted time for transit riders themselves.

[danbrotherston]

I'm also of the opinion that the route through Cambridge is too indirect if the intention is to get to downtown Galt.

That's not the main intention though, they want the LRT to service the most frequented areas of the city. That includes "downtown Preston" and a huge chunk of what is unfortunately just low-rise industrial and retail down Hespeler Road so the chosen route makes the most sense. I think by the middle of this century, we'll see a lot of that low-rise development get redeveloped into a new planned urban space.

I think in that hypothetical situation, the bus would like be routed via Fountain, not the 401.

Oops, yeah I forgot about that Fountain went there. That would make a Homer Watson LRT terminus make even less sense as it would add 8 kilometers of extra driving for a bus to get to Maple Grove/Fountain, not to mention add even more wasted time for transit riders themselves.

There is no reason we cannot route the busses up the 401 if we choose to (or even up our own busway), if that was our priority, and the data showed that direct up the 401 was the more effective choice both to support, we could do that.

And given the empty fields that front most of Fountain St., there's little reason to think we would bother putting a lot of busses up that route.

[Bytor]

Except the transit ridership was not there. As I have already pointed out elsewhere, there's no big commercial nodes on Manitou or Homer  equivalent to Sportsworld. Huron Business Park doesn't front onto Homer and light industrial areas like that are rarely good ridership generators since their jobs per hectare densities are low. The residential areas along Homer Watson in Doon and Pioneer Park are also low density inside the LRT 800m catchment area of an LRT. People may live, work and go to school down there, but not very many of them. It's why the 76 has stayed only a busPlus route for so long.

You'd have  a better case if even just the ridership to Conestoga College was higher, but it never has been. As I pointed out elsewhere, it even started to fall before the pandemic even with the expanded service of the 10/100 to the college. The 10 and the 110 are the only route I've noticed so far where the boardings declined from Fall 2018 to Fall 2019, the period of the biggest year over year jumps in GRT ridership ever. Compare that to the 57, a route which doesn't have Sunday service and goes through the rural areas on the west side of the Grand River, experienced a 3x jump in the fall of 2019!

You talk about people going "through" instead of to or from. Well, putting the 200 and it's successor the 302 through there instead of Sportsworld would probably resulted in a lot of people only going "through" the Homer Watson corridor rather than stopping there, given that the data seems to show us there would not be good uptake.

This isn't bad faith, it's simply the numbers. The Sportsworld route was and still is the better route because of distance (shortening trip time), nodes along the way, existing transit usage, and potential uptake.

You are basing this entirely on the commercial properties at Sportsworld. That is the ONLY destination that Sportsworld has that Homer-Watson doesn't.

You're discounting entirely having a post secondary educational facility (which traditionally drive a huge portion of ridership, if the service is good), and you're waffling on housing, which is absolutely stronger on Homer Watson, it is MOSTLY low density, but includes several high density areas, unlike Pioneer which is exclusively low density and much smaller.

That really sounds like cherrypicking.

No, I am not basing only on the commercial properties at Sportsworld.

You've ignore where I pointed that ridership dropped on routes 10 and 110, the primary feeders of Conestoga College, from Fall 2018 to Fall 2019 when every other route experience significant increases.

An no, I am not "waffling" on housing. There's only one high density area inside the 800m walking distance of Homer Watson—I even gave a link to a map showing census densities from 2016 right around Homer Watson, for crying out loud! You can see that anything more than 10-15 people per hectare are more than a kilometre away from where any station might be on Homer.

I gave multiple reasons like that, and the cherry picker here is you by ignoring them.

[neonjoe]

If conestoga were to be served it would actually have to detour off of Homer watson quite some way, the campus itself is a suburban wasteland. The 'density' node at Conestoga College Blvd and Homer Watson has even struggled to support any commercial for quite some time. Peavymart/TSC, McDonalds, Tims and a gas station were all that has really been there with the dead plaza only being revitalized recently. I doubt many of those existing businesses get any foot traffic. Unless the campus were to be redeveloped or the LRT routed into the campus and across a new bridge to the Cambridge campus we wouldn't much foot traffic to the actual line. Conestoga doesn't seem to have the will or desire to expand that campus, they have been putting programs everywhere else recently... downtown, university ave, the other end of Fountain over the 401.