Minimum wages and universal basic income

[embe]

When paying cash I usually round up to the next denomination of whatever bills I'm using (or whatever makes it so I don't need change brought back). 

And yes, crap service = crap tip.  Most people in the hospitality business learn this in quick time if that's the path they choose.

[ijmorlan]

The other thing about tip inflation that is irritating is that because the amount is already a percentage, inflation is automatically taken into account. Where does it stop? 33% tip? 40%? 50%?

You assume that minimum wages is indexed on something that tracks inflation. That's only the case in 7 provinces and territories [1] now, and in 17 states as of 2018 [2]. Tip inflation is the way that restaurant staff start approaching living wages. It's irritating to us because we are consumers trained by a capitalist society to devalue labour and to dislike paying the full cost of the services and products we consume.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wage_in_Canada
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_wa...n_indexing

No, tip inflation annoys me because the whole concept of pseudo-mandatory tipping is insane, and increasing the percentage is going in the wrong direction. Also given the level of economic and mathematical ignorance I see, it is entirely believable that some people believe that a percentage price naturally should be expected to increase with inflation. And finally as a buyer I expect to negotiate with my seller (the restaurant), not with my seller’s suppliers (the servers).

[plam]

When paying cash I usually round up to the next denomination of whatever bills I'm using (or whatever makes it so I don't need change brought back). 

And yes, crap service = crap tip.  Most people in the hospitality business learn this in quick time if that's the path they choose.

Oh, another fun result is that studies find that for servers the tip is not correlated with the level of service. It's things like did the server smile at the customer?

What gets me is that people really wanted to expand tipping to Uber. wtf?!

[tomh009]

When paying cash I usually round up to the next denomination of whatever bills I'm using (or whatever makes it so I don't need change brought back). 

And yes, crap service = crap tip.  Most people in the hospitality business learn this in quick time if that's the path they choose.

Oh, another fun result is that studies find that for servers the tip is not correlated with the level of service. It's things like did the server smile at the customer?

What gets me is that people really wanted to expand tipping to Uber. wtf?!

And probably correlated with how long it takes the meal -- which is typically all about the kitchen, and nothing to do with the server.

For Uber, the positive about the tipping is to supplement the rather meagre income of the Uber driver. Fundamentally the same problem as server wages.

[danbrotherston]

When paying cash I usually round up to the next denomination of whatever bills I'm using (or whatever makes it so I don't need change brought back). 

And yes, crap service = crap tip.  Most people in the hospitality business learn this in quick time if that's the path they choose.

Oh, another fun result is that studies find that for servers the tip is not correlated with the level of service. It's things like did the server smile at the customer?

What gets me is that people really wanted to expand tipping to Uber. wtf?!

Uber wants to expand it, because it makes it easier for them to pay people less.

People want to expand it because some people, and I don't think this is uncommon at all--let me be blunt, I see this in this thread right now--want to feel in control of other people.

[danbrotherston]

Oh, another fun result is that studies find that for servers the tip is not correlated with the level of service. It's things like did the server smile at the customer?

What gets me is that people really wanted to expand tipping to Uber. wtf?!

And probably correlated with how long it takes the meal -- which is typically all about the kitchen, and nothing to do with the server.

For Uber, the positive about the tipping is to supplement the rather meagre income of the Uber driver. Fundamentally the same problem as server wages.

Putting a bandaid on a festering wound isn't fixing anything, even if it's less ugly to look at.

[danbrotherston]

When paying cash I usually round up to the next denomination of whatever bills I'm using (or whatever makes it so I don't need change brought back). 

And yes, crap service = crap tip.  Most people in the hospitality business learn this in quick time if that's the path they choose.

See, this is kind of the problem with tipping.

First of all, you suggest your tip is just rounding up...that could easily be 1-2% tip, are you telling me if you sat down for a restaurant meal and got a bill for 59 dollars, you'd pay 60?

I'm gonna be blunt, I call that wage theft.  The government doesn't, but morally that's what I believe it is. These workers make tips as part of their wages, you choosing not to tip is (1.7% doesn't count) is theft of that wage.

Second, "crap service" = "crap tip"...no, If I have a plumber come and work on my plumbing and I am unsatisfied with his work, I still pay him.  If I buy food from the grocery store and I am unsatisified with the food, I still pay for it. I can complain, but I am not entitled to labor for free.

I don't think I should be the one paying for that labor, but seeing as how I am, I don't think I have a right to deprive someone of their wages based on my whims.

[tomh009]

Second, "crap service" = "crap tip"...no, If I have a plumber come and work on my plumbing and I am unsatisfied with his work, I still pay him.  If I buy food from the grocery store and I am unsatisified with the food, I still pay for it. I can complain, but I am not entitled to labor for free.

I don't think I should be the one paying for that labor, but seeing as how I am, I don't think I have a right to deprive someone of their wages based on my whims.

Actually, you (or I) should be the one paying for that labour -- we should just be paying for it as part of the price of the product (the meal).

But, regarding the crap service/crap tip, that then also implies that fabulous service shouldn't merit a fabulous tip, either. Because the tip is either a (fixed) part of the server's compensation, or it's a reward for good service. But blending the two makes it worse yet.

[panamaniac]

I guess this illustrates that different people have different reasons for tipping. Some to supplement wages, some to acknowledge service. Some probably do it only because they are uncomforatble with how it would look not to tip.

[danbrotherston]

Second, "crap service" = "crap tip"...no, If I have a plumber come and work on my plumbing and I am unsatisfied with his work, I still pay him.  If I buy food from the grocery store and I am unsatisified with the food, I still pay for it. I can complain, but I am not entitled to labor for free.

I don't think I should be the one paying for that labor, but seeing as how I am, I don't think I have a right to deprive someone of their wages based on my whims.

Actually, you (or I) should be the one paying for that labour -- we should just be paying for it as part of the price of the product (the meal).

But, regarding the crap service/crap tip, that then also implies that fabulous service shouldn't merit a fabulous tip, either. Because the tip is either a (fixed) part of the server's compensation, or it's a reward for good service. But blending the two makes it worse yet.

Yes, this is how businesses work, I understand that.

But I am not negotiating or choosing what to pay an employee of a different business, that's the job of the business owner, and they should protect their employees from my (the customer's) irrational whims.

I absolutely agree, I don't tip more for "fabulous" service either, I *might* if tipping was a reward for extrodinary service...but that should happen once or twice a year at most....maybe a half dozen times if you eat out (or whatever service we are discussing) very frequently--like, more than weekly. To put a number on it, I'd argue if you think you get extrordinary service more than 1 in 10 cases, then your standards are wrong (interestingly, this relates to an earlier discussion where "mediocure" is seen as "bad" as opposed to "average" which the word actually means).

But this is not what we have now. Right now, I feel like people who like tipping, come in two groups, the first, are the kind who like to "get deals", i.e., they want to pay for special service, they like the idea of slipping the waiter a twenty for a "faster" table.  Just something they like.

Another group, I suspect just like to feel they have control over something...

I dunno, that's just speculation. But I don't think anyone who supports tipping as we currently have it, supports the current system because they want to reward fabulous service.

[plam]

Uber wants to expand it, because it makes it easier for them to pay people less.

People want to expand it because some people, and I don't think this is uncommon at all--let me be blunt, I see this in this thread right now--want to feel in control of other people.

I mean, that's pretty rational on Uber's part, but they pushed back on it for a surprisingly long time before giving in.

The desire for control is another documented reason that people like tipping, yes.

[danbrotherston]

Uber wants to expand it, because it makes it easier for them to pay people less.

People want to expand it because some people, and I don't think this is uncommon at all--let me be blunt, I see this in this thread right now--want to feel in control of other people.

I mean, that's pretty rational on Uber's part, but they pushed back on it for a surprisingly long time before giving in.

The desire for control is another documented reason that people like tipping, yes.

Yeah. I was surprised about that from Uber. I wondered if it might have been a long play for their self driving car strategy. I don't credit that company with an abundance of concern for social issues.

[tomh009]

For Uber, the positive about the tipping is to supplement the rather meagre income of the Uber driver. Fundamentally the same problem as server wages.

Putting a bandaid on a festering wound isn't fixing anything, even if it's less ugly to look at.

I'm not medically qualified to cure the disease (Uber's compensation policy) but as a customer I can at least give the driver a bandage (a tip). So I will do that. Just like I tip at restaurants, where the staff are also not sufficiently compensated otherwise.

[danbrotherston]

Putting a bandaid on a festering wound isn't fixing anything, even if it's less ugly to look at.

I'm not medically qualified to cure the disease (Uber's compensation policy) but as a customer I can at least give the driver a bandage (a tip). So I will do that. Just like I tip at restaurants, where the staff are also not sufficiently compensated otherwise.

You could also not use Uber...unlike tipping in restaurants, we do have alternatives which are not uber--yes, they have their own problems, but oppressive gig work policies are not one of them.

[tomh009]

I'm not medically qualified to cure the disease (Uber's compensation policy) but as a customer I can at least give the driver a bandage (a tip). So I will do that. Just like I tip at restaurants, where the staff are also not sufficiently compensated otherwise.

You could also not use Uber...unlike tipping in restaurants, we do have alternatives which are not uber--yes, they have their own problems, but oppressive gig work policies are not one of them.

I could rent a car, yes. Or take a conventional taxi. But sometimes car rental doesn't make sense. And in some cities the taxis are in such terrible condition that I really don't want to ride in one of them (NYC, I'm looking at you in particular).

And there is indeed an alternative to eating at restaurants: cook your own meals.