General Road and Highway Discussion

[embe]

Is that a pedestrian scramble at King and university???

Reminds me the amount of times I've seen the lights at that intersection ignored by pedestrians.  One lady walked right in front of a car, got smoked, rolled off the hood/roof, picked herself up and kept walking as if nothing had happened.  Couldn't believe it.  To make it worse, she wasn't the only one crossing against the red light at the time.  Almost like a herd mentality.

[tomh009]

When was the Belmont Ave road diet done? At least from Victoria St to Glasgow St it's now one lane in each direction, plus a centre turning lane, and bike lanes (with plastic bollards) on both sides.

Minor gripe: when these kinds of rearrangements are done separate from paving, the end result is a set of fairly confusing current and former/covered lane markings. Oh well.

It should be fairly clear given the bollards, and eventually the old marks become less prominent.

This was done as part of the Queens and Belmont protected bike lane pilot project https://globalnews.ca/news/5660026/construction-kitchener-bike-lanes/

Ironically, at the beginning when the old lines were very prominet, drivers were driving between the old and new lines in a ~2.2 meter space, and were going quite safely and orderly....its almost as if wide lanes are bad.

The bollards are clear, no question. It's the plethora of former lane markings that makes things less clear, especially in the rain.

[danbrotherston]

No, there's nothing diagonal indicated. Just wide zebra crosswalks and clearly delineated bike lanes.

I’m concerned about some locations where it appears they are proposing to remove the left turn lanes. Now as many around here will know, I’m the guy who thinks almost all of our 4 lane roads could be 2 lane roads; but I think it’s clearly insane to remove left turn lanes (and right turn lanes, for that matter) on University. The intersections are precisely where more than one lane in each direction is definitely needed; in between intersections is where I suspect one lane per direction would be enough. This would also make mid-block crossings really easy. Imagine if the street is essentially 3 lanes, one lane in each direction plus a lane that becomes left turn lanes at major intersections and elsewhere is a median that forms a huge pedestrian refuge. It might also work for it to be a left turn lane for carefully chosen locations between the major intersections.

I wouldn't worry. There is exactly zero chance the region would remove a left turn lane that is actually warranted by turning traffic.  Given they haven't even mentioned the idea it's probably just for illustrative purposes.

Also, right turn lanes are 100% unnecessary if they have pedestrian scrambles.

[ijmorlan]

I wouldn't worry. There is exactly zero chance the region would remove a left turn lane that is actually warranted by turning traffic.  Given they haven't even mentioned the idea it's probably just for illustrative purposes.

Good point.

Although there are many intersections that absolutely should have left turn lanes which don’t, usually on roads which should otherwise be two lanes only, so I’m not quite so confident. But I agree that actually removing an existing turn lane seems unlikely.

Also, right turn lanes are 100% unnecessary if they have pedestrian scrambles.

I hadn’t thought of that. I guess if non-motor vehicles have their own phase, then people turning right won’t hold up people going straight. I’m a bit concerned how bicycle lanes would fit into this however.

I actually was thinking a bit about right turns (not considering scrambles at the time). I wonder how well it would work to have right turn lanes separated from the intersection by an island. The usual problem with this is that people can take those turns almost like a highway because of the large radius. But what if the right turn lane separates gradually from the road, then meets the other road with a low-radius curb? Then the main intersection can have zero radius (and therefore the shortest possible pedestrian crossings) while still slowing vehicles making right turns so as to allow safe crossing of the right turn lanes.

[boatracer]

I’m concerned about some locations where it appears they are proposing to remove the left turn lanes. Now as many around here will know, I’m the guy who thinks almost all of our 4 lane roads could be 2 lane roads; but I think it’s clearly insane to remove left turn lanes (and right turn lanes, for that matter) on University. The intersections are precisely where more than one lane in each direction is definitely needed; in between intersections is where I suspect one lane per direction would be enough. This would also make mid-block crossings really easy. Imagine if the street is essentially 3 lanes, one lane in each direction plus a lane that becomes left turn lanes at major intersections and elsewhere is a median that forms a huge pedestrian refuge. It might also work for it to be a left turn lane for carefully chosen locations between the major intersections.

I wouldn't worry. There is exactly zero chance the region would remove a left turn lane that is actually warranted by turning traffic.  Given they haven't even mentioned the idea it's probably just for illustrative purposes.

Also, right turn lanes are 100% unnecessary if they have pedestrian scrambles.

They tried to remove one on Homer Watson turning left to Doon Village Road during the current MUT construction. The new concrete island was all in place and then there must have been a backlash because the design has now been modified to include a left turn lane.

[danbrotherston]

I wouldn't worry. There is exactly zero chance the region would remove a left turn lane that is actually warranted by turning traffic.  Given they haven't even mentioned the idea it's probably just for illustrative purposes.

Also, right turn lanes are 100% unnecessary if they have pedestrian scrambles.

They tried to remove one on Homer Watson turning left to Doon Village Road during the current MUT construction. The new concrete island was all in place and then there must have been a backlash because the design has now been modified to include a left turn lane.

No they didn't.  I saw the designs for that project from the beginning, I have no idea what happened with the construction, but there was no left turn lane removals.  They modified the geometry at some intersections, but they were not removing any turn lanes.

[danbrotherston]

I wouldn't worry. There is exactly zero chance the region would remove a left turn lane that is actually warranted by turning traffic.  Given they haven't even mentioned the idea it's probably just for illustrative purposes.

Good point.

Although there are many intersections that absolutely should have left turn lanes which don’t, usually on roads which should otherwise be two lanes only, so I’m not quite so confident. But I agree that actually removing an existing turn lane seems unlikely.

Also, right turn lanes are 100% unnecessary if they have pedestrian scrambles.

I hadn’t thought of that. I guess if non-motor vehicles have their own phase, then people turning right won’t hold up people going straight. I’m a bit concerned how bicycle lanes would fit into this however.

I actually was thinking a bit about right turns (not considering scrambles at the time). I wonder how well it would work to have right turn lanes separated from the intersection by an island. The usual problem with this is that people can take those turns almost like a highway because of the large radius. But what if the right turn lane separates gradually from the road, then meets the other road with a low-radius curb? Then the main intersection can have zero radius (and therefore the shortest possible pedestrian crossings) while still slowing vehicles making right turns so as to allow safe crossing of the right turn lanes.

Bicycles should be enabled to use the pedestrian scramble phase, but this is a challenge in light sequencing because it would suck to have to wait for the light.

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting for the separated right turn lane can you draw it out? Are you suggesting something like the right turn leg of this roundabout: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4268258,-...a=!3m1!1e3 (which I cannot comprehend the reason for anyway, there seems to be no justification for this lane). It sounds like it would take a lot of space...I'm still sure how it makes the crossing easier, it would still depend on the turn radii at the right turn.

[boatracer]

They tried to remove one on Homer Watson turning left to Doon Village Road during the current MUT construction. The new concrete island was all in place and then there must have been a backlash because the design has now been modified to include a left turn lane.

No they didn't.  I saw the designs for that project from the beginning, I have no idea what happened with the construction, but there was no left turn lane removals.  They modified the geometry at some intersections, but they were not removing any turn lanes.

The Issued for Bid drawings would suggest otherwise.

[tomh009]

The difference is that in that drawing there are no left turns allowed, hence no left-turn lane required. The lane markings only allow right turns or continuing straight.

[danbrotherston]

No they didn't.  I saw the designs for that project from the beginning, I have no idea what happened with the construction, but there was no left turn lane removals.  They modified the geometry at some intersections, but they were not removing any turn lanes.

The Issued for Bid drawings would suggest otherwise.

I stand corrected, although, tomh is right, this was a turn restriction, not removing a turn lane.

I would be curious to know the story of why this was cancelled however....I think we have all together to few turn restrictions.

[avernar]

Also, right turn lanes are 100% unnecessary if they have pedestrian scrambles.

Unless they screw it up like Toronto did and allow pedestrians to also cross (like a normal intersection) when the cars had green.

[ijmorlan]

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting for the separated right turn lane can you draw it out? Are you suggesting something like the right turn leg of this roundabout: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4268258,-...a=!3m1!1e3 (which I cannot comprehend the reason for anyway, there seems to be no justification for this lane). It sounds like it would take a lot of space...I'm still sure how it makes the crossing easier, it would still depend on the turn radii at the right turn.

A bit like that in shape, but more like the ones at University and Westmount or University and Weber in terms of size (sorry, I don’t have a convenient way of sketching something quickly right now, although really I should just put something together for that). Also I’m talking about non-roundabout intersections; I’m not entirely clear on why they add those to roundabouts. I think in principle it is supposed to reduce the amount of traffic using the actual circle itself but I have an idea that the right turn lane tends to jam up, leading people to use the circle, further increasing the incentive to avoid the right turn lane.

So as to shape, the one you pointed out starts by separating from the road, and it looks like maybe it will form an almost highway-like ramp to the other road; but then it curves back and meets the road with a curb radius like an ordinary intersection. My idea is to do that much on a much smaller scale. So if you imagine implementing the shape from the Google Maps aerial photo but on the size of one of the intersections I mentioned, that’s what I’m imagining.

As a pedestrian, I cross a single lane of traffic to get to the island. Right now, many people worry about the speed of cars making the right turn; but my idea is to have them slow as they reach the new street to turn a small-radius corner. Once I’m on the lane, I only have to cross the straight-through and left-turn lanes; and the corner can have a radius of 0 (well, OK, maybe 10cm because that is more reasonable to build out of concrete). If I’m crossing diagonally (both ways), I don’t interact with right-turning traffic at all while I’m changing from crossing one street to crossing the other.

Of course, there are still locations where having separate turn lanes doesn’t work at all due to space constraints, but I’m talking about a modification to the separated turn lane designs to make vehicle speeds more appropriate, so I’m only talking about locations where separated turn lanes already exist or are considered.

I hope that’s a bit more clear.

[tomh009]

What's with the plastic bollards next to the bike lanes on Glasgow? I think there might be only three or four bollards total on the entire length of the bike lane. Did the budget run out and they could only buy four?

[danbrotherston]

ijmorlan pid='74392' dateline='1572284748']

I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting for the separated right turn lane can you draw it out? Are you suggesting something like the right turn leg of this roundabout: https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4268258,-...a=!3m1!1e3 (which I cannot comprehend the reason for anyway, there seems to be no justification for this lane). It sounds like it would take a lot of space...I'm still sure how it makes the crossing easier, it would still depend on the turn radii at the right turn.

A bit like that in shape, but more like the ones at University and Westmount or University and Weber in terms of size (sorry, I don’t have a convenient way of sketching something quickly right now, although really I should just put something together for that). Also I’m talking about non-roundabout intersections; I’m not entirely clear on why they add those to roundabouts. I think in principle it is supposed to reduce the amount of traffic using the actual circle itself but I have an idea that the right turn lane tends to jam up, leading people to use the circle, further increasing the incentive to avoid the right turn lane.

So as to shape, the one you pointed out starts by separating from the road, and it looks like maybe it will form an almost highway-like ramp to the other road; but then it curves back and meets the road with a curb radius like an ordinary intersection. My idea is to do that much on a much smaller scale. So if you imagine implementing the shape from the Google Maps aerial photo but on the size of one of the intersections I mentioned, that’s what I’m imagining.

As a pedestrian, I cross a single lane of traffic to get to the island. Right now, many people worry about the speed of cars making the right turn; but my idea is to have them slow as they reach the new street to turn a small-radius corner. Once I’m on the lane, I only have to cross the straight-through and left-turn lanes; and the corner can have a radius of 0 (well, OK, maybe 10cm because that is more reasonable to build out of concrete). If I’m crossing diagonally (both ways), I don’t interact with right-turning traffic at all while I’m changing from crossing one street to crossing the other.

Of course, there are still locations where having separate turn lanes doesn’t work at all due to space constraints, but I’m talking about a modification to the separated turn lane designs to make vehicle speeds more appropriate, so I’m only talking about locations where separated turn lanes already exist or are considered.

I hope that’s a bit more clear.

I have mocked out a few different options (I just used preview on mac) to try and guess what you are saying.

The bottom left is what it sounds like you are saying, a lane diverges from the road, and makes a gentle S towards the other road, where it makes a 90 degree turn. This would seem to take a considerable amount of space and resources, and would still leave pedestrians crossing high speed traffic at an oblique angle on one leg, otherwise, peds would have to walk very far out of their way to cross on the other leg (this is already the case for roundabouts).

There are a few other designs I thought were worth highlighting, the right has two sharp angles, it also requires a lot of space, but has low speed turns at both ends, this is probably only useful in places with a unique context which makes a right turn at the intersection impossible, otherwise drivers would ignore it, and make the easier turn at the intersection.  I wanted the region to use this on Victoria actually.

The upper left is a traditional regional death island, you'll note it matches exactly the wide and generous turn on actual Weber St.  The top right is something new the region is doing, where they change the geometry of the turn to make the decision point much later, in theory drivers are forced to slow down more and make it safer.

But all of these lead to a really big point, what problem exactly are we trying to solve here? Why are we creating turns different from simple tight narrow turns?  The original reason for the ped island and slip ramps was to increase vehicle speeds in turns, I see this as an anti-goal, I don't really understand why we wouldn't just aim to go back to a traditional tighter corner with lower speeds all throughout.

As for the roundabout, I really have no idea, that turn ramp makes absolutely no sense to me at all, it isn't even the busiest leg of the roundabout....but that whole project leaves plenty to be desired anyway.

   

[bgb_ca]

I saw a sign by Philip and Albert listing a streetscape project for Philip involving adding a multi use trail and trees. Anyone know about this?

  Something to do with this?
https://www.waterloo.ca/en/government/resources/Documents/Cityadministration/Northdale/Northdale-streetscape-master-plan-and-environmental-assessment.pdf

https://www.therecord.com/news-story/6928130-waterloo-ok-s-24-million-plan-to-revamp-the-northdale-streetscape/

I didn't read the entire thing but looks the city wants to add a MUT to Hickory and possibly connect it to Phillip street. Not sure how they would route it through all the buildings, but that connectivity would be great for students going to UW/ION that now would take traffic away from Uni and Columbia.

I took a closer look at the sign and found this today

https://www.engagewr.ca/designing-street...ect-to-ion