ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[CuilTard]

Can they actually fine a monthly pass holder for not tapping? I can't find the bylaw governing public transit payments on the region's site.

There was a discussion about this on reddit, and based on the wording on GRT's site, the conclusion was that a monthly pass counts as proof-of-payment, regardless of whether it's been tapped or not**

https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/comments/c6nm1b/ticket_inspectors_on_lrt/es9xw0y?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

**redditors are self-proclaimed experts and should not be used as official policy. Viewer discretion is advised.

[jeffster]

So apparently Ottawa is in good shape compared to us:

https://www.ottawamatters.com/local-news...on-1544944

TLR - Ottawa's system doesn't mix with traffic, Kitchener's (Waterloo) does.

While it would have been nice to have a separate system, these cities weren't designed to even make this happen, IMHO. Though much of the LRT doesn't mix traffic, such as parts of Waterloo from Uptown to Northfield and in Kitchener from Bordon to Fairview.

[danbrotherston]

So apparently Ottawa is in good shape compared to us:

https://www.ottawamatters.com/local-news...on-1544944

TLR - Ottawa's system doesn't mix with traffic, Kitchener's (Waterloo) does.

While it would have been nice to have a separate system, these cities weren't designed to even make this happen, IMHO. Though much of the LRT doesn't mix traffic, such as parts of Waterloo from Uptown to Northfield and in Kitchener from Bordon to Fairview.

I'd argue this is a highly unfair comparison, and is no doubt an Ottawa oriented view to justify the expense of their tunneling.

First, our system hasn't been "problematic"...collisions, while headline grabbing aren't excessively common or harmful. Also, our LRVs don't "mingle" with traffic, and aren't delayed by traffic.

Segregating from traffic by levels (with tunnels) as opposed to time (with signals) is a choice about whether the land value justifies tunneling for greater transportation capacity. Given that in Ottawa's case (and in most cases) cars are the ones who gain the space, one must consider the real beneficiaries of tunneling.

In any case, the real issues we're facing right now are publicly, the payment system appears to be nearly completely broken, and in secret, ATP is still not operating, and thus speeds are reduced...ironically, this only affects non-road-running segments.

[Bob_McBob]

It's bloody rich for a city whose LRT system has also been plagued by delays, couldn't get their trains working properly in the winter, has suffered multiple derails, is missing crucial equipment, etc. to brag about how much better they're doing than the city with a working LRT.

[tomh009]

Students will tend to pay little to no income tax.

However, that is because they have little to no income, not because they are students. So it is not correct to say that “students” don’t pay income tax unless it is clear that one is talking about a tendency or correlation.

Sort of like how I say that drivers do not pay for the roads they use, even though everybody pays for the roads.

I'll just point you to the words I used in my post (highlighted above) ...

[bgb_ca]

Well I picked a bad time to take a ride. I was on 505 and then bang, several incidents happened. The train held at GRH station, where the driver announced a delay. I flipped on the tuner to hear the LRV had a pannel fall off in cab C. Driver put the panel back on, but some error codes came on.

There was another issue appearantly on another lrv with a fight. They are setting up a Bus Bridge.

I just hopped off and hopped on the 7.

Edit: they just deboarded 505.

Edit2: as I got to Central, a replacement shuttle arrived.

[ijmorlan]

However, that is because they have little to no income, not because they are students. So it is not correct to say that “students” don’t pay income tax unless it is clear that one is talking about a tendency or correlation.

Sort of like how I say that drivers do not pay for the roads they use, even though everybody pays for the roads.

I'll just point you to the words I used in my post (highlighted above) ...

Touché. I need to read the actual words more carefully! Actually I think your post was a good one — you summarized some of the different taxes that students paid, and correctly pointed out that on average students pay little income tax. Mostly I wanted to highlight that the low income tax payment was not student-specific — but especially given my choice of words, I should have acknowledged that you yourself had referred to a tendency.

[ijmorlan]

It's bloody rich for a city whose LRT system has also been plagued by delays, couldn't get their trains working properly in the winter, has suffered multiple derails, is missing crucial equipment, etc. to brag about how much better they're doing than the city with a working LRT.

Yes, a ridiculous article. We haven’t had big problems, other than the long delays. Even our collisions don’t really qualify as major difficulty — it’s inevitable that KW drivers gonna be KW drivers. By the time they carry one passenger we will have been operating mostly successfully for weeks. To see yard derailments, vehicles not working properly in winter, and still no specific opening date as small compared to a successful open takes a weird kind of lack of awareness.

I do have to mention that I have some questions about this ATP not yet being implemented. Our friend Canardiain asked about this on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/Canardiain/status/11...6275783680

It’s a bit strange. First, what do they mean by “under development”? It’s not a new feature. Second, what have they been doing for the last two years? If there had been no problems at all at Bombardier, would we have opened any earlier? I’m thinking that maybe Metrolinx might still have been just as late with the specialized equipment, and maybe ATP would still be “under development” regardless.

[ert86]

Can they actually fine a monthly pass holder for not tapping? I can't find the bylaw governing public transit payments on the region's site.

There was a discussion about this on reddit, and based on the wording on GRT's site, the conclusion was that a monthly pass counts as proof-of-payment, regardless of whether it's been tapped or not**

https://www.reddit.com/r/waterloo/comments/c6nm1b/ticket_inspectors_on_lrt/es9xw0y?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

**redditors are self-proclaimed experts and should not be used as official policy. Viewer discretion is advised.

I overheard someone on the train telling an inspector that they have a monthly pass but weren't sure the tap went through because they were rushing to get on, and it sounded like the inspector needed to take extra steps to see if they had a valid pass instead of just taping the card and moving on.

[ac3r]

So apparently Ottawa is in good shape compared to us:

https://www.ottawamatters.com/local-news...on-1544944

TLR - Ottawa's system doesn't mix with traffic, Kitchener's (Waterloo) does.

While it would have been nice to have a separate system, these cities weren't designed to even make this happen, IMHO. Though much of the LRT doesn't mix traffic, such as parts of Waterloo from Uptown to Northfield and in Kitchener from Bordon to Fairview.

The only aspect of this article I can agree with is that by having our LRT mix with traffic (many are going argue it doesn't, but it still crosses a lot of city streets) it causes some issues. Obviously, traffic accidents have been and will continue to be a problem. Another is that the train is going to be limited in speed along many parts of its route because it can't exactly go over streets/intersections/corners at a high speed...look at the turns at Allen or near Courtland - you could almost just get out and walk faster. And launching the service without the ATP operating also slows things down. I don't understand how they had years of time to get things ready, and they launch it without this, forcing the trains to go incredibly slow.

The ION is more like a city tram/streetcar system, similar to a lot of the lines in Toronto, rather than legitimate light trail. Ottawa has a more proper LRT, completely grade separated with its stations underground or in good locations on the surface, and the rails always separated from traffic by taking efficient routes or going right under any roads in the way. It will be multitudes more efficient than the ION once it is running. Obviously Waterloo Region had to do the ION the way they did because the urban planning in the city has always emphasized vehicles, and for even more historical reasons, the streets evolved to be a mess. But it would have been nice to see some of the stations underground or in trenches, but that would have drove up costs to the point in which nobody would want to fund it. Or, at least have looked into more potential routes where street crossings were more or less eliminated.

I love the fact the ION is here, but it's disappointing. It's hard to see it as anything more than a tram/streetcar network.

[ijmorlan]

I love the fact the ION is here, but it's disappointing. It's hard to see it as anything more than a tram/streetcar network.

I would say it’s definitely well above a streetcar network. The off-street sections are a significant fraction of the total system, although the failure to implement ATP promptly is perplexing and disappointing. Even limited to 50km/h though it goes pretty quickly in those areas.

On street it definitely should run faster. It does not get as much signal priority as it could — sometimes it doesn’t even get the next cycle, never mind pre-empting the regular operation of the signals. Also, they are excessively cautious with speeds. If a section of street is signed for 50km/h, that means cars are actually going 60km/h. So why can’t the LRT go that speed? And that’s even assuming the LRT should be limited to the speed of traffic. Since it’s well established that adjacent lanes of traffic can go at different speeds, even when separated only by a dashed white line meaning cars may switch lanes wherever and whenever, why can’t the LRT go at a different speed than traffic in the adjacent lane, separated by a curb?

I think the LRT limit should be 70km/h on street running and 90km/h off street, although realistically there are few if any places where it could actually accelerate to 90km/h before needing to begin slowing down for the next station.

On the plus side, from riding it a few times, it’s clear that maintaining the current schedule is ridiculously easy. Since they’re already talking about making some speed improvements, I think there is reason to be optimistic that it will run faster in the future, even without adopting some of my less likely suggestions.

[Bob_McBob]

Was ATP in use during testing? The trains were definitely running faster than 50km/h in some sections.

[ac3r]

I believe so...I think I read on Twitter that it was shut off again around the time the service launched.

Edit: I think it was this post, which implies they were going faster during testing: https://twitter.com/Canardiain/status/11...6275783680

[ijmorlan]

Was ATP in use during testing? The trains were definitely running faster than 50km/h in some sections.

I have no idea. However during testing they do things they won’t do in regular service; depending on what they’re doing they might only have one vehicle out on the line, for example, eliminating the possibility of collisions. I believe they even traversed the line at speeds slightly higher than the limits, which they would never do regularly.

Funny thing is, I don’t even see why ATP is needed. We regularly run buses at 120km/h on line-of-sight with 3 lanes full of random idiots driving even faster and weaving in and out, so 70km/h on a gently curving single track with excellent visiblity and no non-transit vehicles shouldn’t be a problem.

[kps]

I think the LRT limit should be 70km/h on street running and 90km/h off street, although realistically there are few if any places where it could actually accelerate to 90km/h before needing to begin slowing down for the next station.

The vehicles top out at 80 km/h, even in a straight line, and can't do curves at any speed since the lack of yaw (either between modules or at nonexistent bogies) means they can't be banked.