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St. Patrick's celebrations
(11-27-2018, 10:45 PM)Spokes Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 06:45 PM)jeffster Wrote: I don't think the region is happy. I'm not even sure why that was said.  But if the police can get extra officers because of things like this, they then can turn around (after getting the budget) and then shut it down.

I still believe, tho, that this should be taken care of by the City of Waterloo and Laurier 100%. The region can do a charge back the city and university and they'll have it cleared up very quickly.

To go a step further, why should the city pay?  Because it's happening there?  This one's on the universities

The universities have zero responsibility for students off-campus, or do they?   That said, if they don't already do it, a statement urging students to give the thing a miss might not hurt.
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(11-27-2018, 10:45 PM)Spokes Wrote: To go a step further, why should the city pay?  Because it's happening there?  This one's on the universities

The party is on a city owned street. The city has the ability to charge everyone with a by-law infraction(s). The city can enforce by-laws, by keeping the road open to traffic. Waterloo could use dump trucks staggered on that street, to make the party less attractive, then hire off-duty officers to ticket anyone drinking on the street. There are lots of solutions, unsure why the "smart city" can't figure this out.
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(11-28-2018, 08:24 AM)jeffster Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 10:45 PM)Spokes Wrote: To go a step further, why should the city pay?  Because it's happening there?  This one's on the universities

The party is on a city owned street. The city has the ability to charge everyone with a by-law infraction(s). The city can enforce by-laws, by keeping the road open to traffic. Waterloo could use dump trucks staggered on that street, to make the party less attractive, then hire off-duty officers to ticket anyone drinking on the street. There are lots of solutions, unsure why the "smart city" can't figure this out.

I'm so tired of this attitude, why not organize a real event.  Germans wanted to drink in October, we have Octoberfest, blues fans want to drink and listen to blues, we have bluesfest, jazz fans want to drink and listen to jazz, we have jazzfest, rib and beer fans want to enjoy ribs and beer we have THREE ribfests.  Students want to drink on St. Patties day, we have declare martial law and park dump trucks on a street to make it unpleasant day.

I'm so sick of this irrational hate for students.  I'm not going to say the current situation is good, but as far as I can tell, it's better than what the vast majority of people seem to want, which is to bully students away from the city.  An actual smart city would do it's best to work with people to arrive at a mutually beneficial solution instead of trying to dominate one group.
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(11-28-2018, 08:24 AM)jeffster Wrote:
(11-27-2018, 10:45 PM)Spokes Wrote: To go a step further, why should the city pay?  Because it's happening there?  This one's on the universities

The party is on a city owned street. The city has the ability to charge everyone with a by-law infraction(s). The city can enforce by-laws, by keeping the road open to traffic. Waterloo could use dump trucks staggered on that street, to make the party less attractive, then hire off-duty officers to ticket anyone drinking on the street. There are lots of solutions, unsure why the "smart city" can't figure this out.

Ahh true, you're right.  I hadn't thought of that.  Either way, it's going to take all stakeholders coming together on this one to find a solution.
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(11-28-2018, 09:19 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 08:24 AM)jeffster Wrote: The party is on a city owned street. The city has the ability to charge everyone with a by-law infraction(s). The city can enforce by-laws, by keeping the road open to traffic. Waterloo could use dump trucks staggered on that street, to make the party less attractive, then hire off-duty officers to ticket anyone drinking on the street. There are lots of solutions, unsure why the "smart city" can't figure this out.

I'm so tired of this attitude, why not organize a real event.  Germans wanted to drink in October, we have Octoberfest, blues fans want to drink and listen to blues, we have bluesfest, jazz fans want to drink and listen to jazz, we have jazzfest, rib and beer fans want to enjoy ribs and beer we have THREE ribfests.  Students want to drink on St. Patties day, we have declare martial law and park dump trucks on a street to make it unpleasant day.

I'm so sick of this irrational hate for students.  I'm not going to say the current situation is good, but as far as I can tell, it's better than what the vast majority of people seem to want, which is to bully students away from the city.  An actual smart city would do it's best to work with people to arrive at a mutually beneficial solution instead of trying to dominate one group.

It's not a hate for students, it's a hate for the curent situation.

You can try to do an organized event, I just don't think it's going to work.  If you're a student who's under age, are you going to go?  Nope, you can't.  Do you want to pay for the price of drinks when you're used to just buying and bringing your own?  Nope.  Even if you did create a legitimized event, you'd still have a large population of students doing what's going on on Ezra just elsewhere. 

No one's advocating bullying students out of the city, but what's going on now doesn't work in any situation.
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(11-28-2018, 10:22 AM)Spokes Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 09:19 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I'm so tired of this attitude, why not organize a real event.  Germans wanted to drink in October, we have Octoberfest, blues fans want to drink and listen to blues, we have bluesfest, jazz fans want to drink and listen to jazz, we have jazzfest, rib and beer fans want to enjoy ribs and beer we have THREE ribfests.  Students want to drink on St. Patties day, we have declare martial law and park dump trucks on a street to make it unpleasant day.

I'm so sick of this irrational hate for students.  I'm not going to say the current situation is good, but as far as I can tell, it's better than what the vast majority of people seem to want, which is to bully students away from the city.  An actual smart city would do it's best to work with people to arrive at a mutually beneficial solution instead of trying to dominate one group.

It's not a hate for students, it's a hate for the curent situation.

You can try to do an organized event, I just don't think it's going to work.  If you're a student who's under age, are you going to go?  Nope, you can't.  Do you want to pay for the price of drinks when you're used to just buying and bringing your own?  Nope.  Even if you did create a legitimized event, you'd still have a large population of students doing what's going on on Ezra just elsewhere. 

No one's advocating bullying students out of the city, but what's going on now doesn't work in any situation.

It's never even been tried, the whole city has gone straight to "shut it down"...I remember how this feels as a student.  ANY solution that is ONLY "shut it down" is by definition not working for all the people involved.  Suppressing people rarely works out well, best case, you drive away a lot of students who might otherwise have settled in the region.  The point of creating an event is to guide the situation, instead of suppress it, and, plenty of students under age go to other festival events in the city--heck, there might be some who are glad there are other activities from drinking.
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(11-28-2018, 10:37 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: It's never even been tried

Minor point: It has been tried, though poorly. Details are scattered throughout this thread and I can't find good external sourcing after a few minutes of lazy googling, but the general gist is that a tent went up somewhere on Seagram's Drive.

The first mention here is: http://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/s...5#pid49655

I don't think that detracts from your actual point about treating students like actual humans though. And it certainly hasn't been tried in memory of the students who are participating in the celebrations.

Edit to add: Page 3 has a bunch of information from Jordan2423 who volunteered at the event: http://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/s...151&page=3
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(11-28-2018, 10:44 AM)robdrimmie Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:37 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: It's never even been tried

Minor point: It has been tried, though poorly. Details are scattered throughout this thread and I can't find good external sourcing after a few minutes of lazy googling, but the general gist is that a tent went up somewhere on Seagram's Drive.

The first mention here is: http://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/s...5#pid49655

I don't think that detracts from your actual point about treating students like actual humans though. And it certainly hasn't been tried in memory of the students who are participating in the celebrations.

I definitely know about the tent, and, I think its a debatable point to be sure, but I'd argue that this 'tent' wasn't a real attempt at an event.  For one, it had nothing except drinking, no food, no entertainment, it is entirely unlike any other event in the region, even Octoberfest which is entirely focused on drinking.  And second, as you mentioned it wasn't located on Ezra St. where the event occurs.  It was perhaps worth a try, but I wouldn't consider it an actual event attempt, it was merely an attempt to relocate and make official the drinking. Like I said though, debatable, it might be unfair to say the city has never tried anything except suppressing the event, but those two things are why I think it wouldn't have succeeded.
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(11-28-2018, 10:49 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I definitely know about the tent, and, I think its a debatable point to be sure, but I'd argue that this 'tent' wasn't a real attempt at an event.

You can absolutely say "the attempt was bullshit" but saying "I think the event was bullshit so that means it wasn't even tried" is its own special form of bullshit that really doesn't lead to anything resembling constructive conversation.
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(11-28-2018, 10:37 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:22 AM)Spokes Wrote: It's not a hate for students, it's a hate for the curent situation.

You can try to do an organized event, I just don't think it's going to work.  If you're a student who's under age, are you going to go?  Nope, you can't.  Do you want to pay for the price of drinks when you're used to just buying and bringing your own?  Nope.  Even if you did create a legitimized event, you'd still have a large population of students doing what's going on on Ezra just elsewhere. 

No one's advocating bullying students out of the city, but what's going on now doesn't work in any situation.

It's never even been tried, the whole city has gone straight to "shut it down"...I remember how this feels as a student.  ANY solution that is ONLY "shut it down" is by definition not working for all the people involved.  Suppressing people rarely works out well, best case, you drive away a lot of students who might otherwise have settled in the region.  The point of creating an event is to guide the situation, instead of suppress it, and, plenty of students under age go to other festival events in the city--heck, there might be some who are glad there are other activities from drinking.

For the record, I never once said shut it down, I just said, this is an issue and the status quo isn't working.  I too remember what it was like to be a student.  But student culture in Ottawa is very different than it is here.  

We need to find a solution that works for everyone, because as you mentioned this could have a negative impact on keeping great students who would settle here.

As I've said all along, the status quo doesn't work, but I'm doing nothing to solve the problem, because frankly I don't know what to do to solve it.  So you're better off than me because you've got an idea, I'm just skeptical of it's success because they already tried something similar and it didn't work.
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(11-28-2018, 10:49 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:44 AM)robdrimmie Wrote: Minor point: It has been tried, though poorly. Details are scattered throughout this thread and I can't find good external sourcing after a few minutes of lazy googling, but the general gist is that a tent went up somewhere on Seagram's Drive.

The first mention here is: http://www.waterlooregionconnected.com/s...p?tid=1151&pid=49655#pid49655

I don't think that detracts from your actual point about treating students like actual humans though. And it certainly hasn't been tried in memory of the students who are participating in the celebrations.

I definitely know about the tent, and, I think its a debatable point to be sure, but I'd argue that this 'tent' wasn't a real attempt at an event.  For one, it had nothing except drinking, no food, no entertainment, it is entirely unlike any other event in the region, even Octoberfest which is entirely focused on drinking.  And second, as you mentioned it wasn't located on Ezra St. where the event occurs.  It was perhaps worth a try, but I wouldn't consider it an actual event attempt, it was merely an attempt to relocate and make official the drinking.  Like I said though, debatable, it might be unfair to say the city has never tried anything except suppressing the event, but those two things are why I think it wouldn't have succeeded.

But isn't that what the St Patrick's Day and Homecoming parties are?  It's not like the students are just drinking and partying because they wish there was something else to do.  That's what these parties are.  Does adding food and entertainment really change that?
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I feel like everyone is missing a major point of this celebration, though Spokes just hinted at it.

The appeal of the event is the chaos. The appeal is drinking alcohol in the middle of the street, in front of a police officer, while standing shoulder to shoulder with 10,000 other students. The appeal is the unstoppable mass that this event has become. 

Putting up a tent in another location, fencing off Ezra and charging admission to cover costs, or any other attempt to organize and legitimize the celebration removes that appeal. The students will find another street where the chaos can continue at no cost to them.
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(11-28-2018, 11:08 AM)Spokes Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:49 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I definitely know about the tent, and, I think its a debatable point to be sure, but I'd argue that this 'tent' wasn't a real attempt at an event.  For one, it had nothing except drinking, no food, no entertainment, it is entirely unlike any other event in the region, even Octoberfest which is entirely focused on drinking.  And second, as you mentioned it wasn't located on Ezra St. where the event occurs.  It was perhaps worth a try, but I wouldn't consider it an actual event attempt, it was merely an attempt to relocate and make official the drinking.  Like I said though, debatable, it might be unfair to say the city has never tried anything except suppressing the event, but those two things are why I think it wouldn't have succeeded.

But isn't that what the St Patrick's Day and Homecoming parties are?  It's not like the students are just drinking and partying because they wish there was something else to do.  That's what these parties are.  Does adding food and entertainment really change that?

I don't think food and (appropriate) music would reduce the appeal.
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(11-28-2018, 11:44 AM)Ace Wrote: I feel like everyone is missing a major point of this celebration, though Spokes just hinted at it.

The appeal of the event is the chaos. The appeal is drinking alcohol in the middle of the street, in front of a police officer, while standing shoulder to shoulder with 10,000 other students. The appeal is the unstoppable mass that this event has become. 

Putting up a tent in another location, fencing off Ezra and charging admission to cover costs, or any other attempt to organize and legitimize the celebration removes that appeal. The students will find another street where the chaos can continue at no cost to them.

So first of all, this doesn't happen, the police actively enforce no drinking in public during the event.

Second, I enjoy ribfest and other events for that reason as well, it's an event with tons of energy, being an organized event doesn't necessarily detract from that.

Third, there is no admission fees at most of the other events in the city, why are we proposing one here?  Is this *only * about money?

And I really doubt they'll move it, but hey, prove me wrong, organize a real event, with no admission fees, and I'll keep my eye on Lester.
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(11-28-2018, 11:08 AM)Spokes Wrote:
(11-28-2018, 10:49 AM)danbrotherston Wrote: I definitely know about the tent, and, I think its a debatable point to be sure, but I'd argue that this 'tent' wasn't a real attempt at an event.  For one, it had nothing except drinking, no food, no entertainment, it is entirely unlike any other event in the region, even Octoberfest which is entirely focused on drinking.  And second, as you mentioned it wasn't located on Ezra St. where the event occurs.  It was perhaps worth a try, but I wouldn't consider it an actual event attempt, it was merely an attempt to relocate and make official the drinking.  Like I said though, debatable, it might be unfair to say the city has never tried anything except suppressing the event, but those two things are why I think it wouldn't have succeeded.

But isn't that what the St Patrick's Day and Homecoming parties are?  It's not like the students are just drinking and partying because they wish there was something else to do.  That's what these parties are.  Does adding food and entertainment really change that?

I think it would, that's what they're doing now, because there is nothing else...Ezra is an empty street otherwise, what else can you do, but drink and mill about.  If there was something, I think they might do that something.  But hey, prove me wrong.
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