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Strata | 16 & 22 fl | Proposed
#91
(06-14-2018, 10:09 AM)Spokes Wrote: Ya it does seem like it would serve kind of the same purpose, and I'm not sure there's the need for two.  Yet.  

Especially if TheMuseum is planning on doing an expansion with the BMO property

The ideal will be if they can now engage in substantive work to ensure they are not duplicating efforts or working at cross-purposes.
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#92
(06-14-2018, 10:47 AM)panamaniac Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:09 AM)Spokes Wrote: Ya it does seem like it would serve kind of the same purpose, and I'm not sure there's the need for two.  Yet.  

Especially if TheMuseum is planning on doing an expansion with the BMO property

The ideal will be if they can now engage in substantive work to ensure they are not duplicating efforts or working at cross-purposes.

If this is a commercially viable venture (paid by users, sponsors etc and not dependent on donors or government funding) then I really don't see any issue. But it's not quite clear to me what their plan is.
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#93
(06-15-2018, 02:38 AM)tomh009 Wrote:
(06-14-2018, 10:47 AM)panamaniac Wrote: The ideal will be if they can now engage in substantive work to ensure they are not duplicating efforts or working at cross-purposes.

If this is a commercially viable venture (paid by users, sponsors etc and not dependent on donors or government funding) then I really don't see any issue. But it's not quite clear to me what their plan is.

The issue (to be clarified) is the potential to harm themuseum (there may indeed be none, but that's what needs to be clarified).  Have the proponents of the new project confirmed that it will be privately funded?  I would have thought that public support would be a given.
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#94
Is KW really so small that they can't have two places with somewhat overlapping goals? Inevitably, they will each find a niche so as to be complementary.

Also, the way they complain about the tower development itself:

Quote:they also fear its size and scale is a poor fit for the area and will have a "negative and lasting impact on the uptown core."
...
Their letter also went on to question the amount of parking available near the Waterloo site, and said it "would appear to be a continuation of the student housing towers lining King Street."

Reads as very typical NIMBY concerns: "too tall", "not enough parking", "wrong tenants".
I wonder if they live nearby?
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#95
(06-15-2018, 11:09 AM)Markster Wrote: Is KW really so small that they can't have two places with somewhat overlapping goals? Inevitably, they will each find a niche so as to be complementary.

Also, the way they complain about the tower development itself:

Quote:they also fear its size and scale is a poor fit for the area and will have a "negative and lasting impact on the uptown core."
...
Their letter also went on to question the amount of parking available near the Waterloo site, and said it "would appear to be a continuation of the student housing towers lining King Street."

Reads as very typical NIMBY concerns: "too tall", "not enough parking", "wrong tenants".
I wonder if they live nearby?

The point is that we don't know whether K-W can sustain two places like this with similar goals.  That needs to be clarified.  The developer suggests that it can, but the proposal is not yet well enough formed to know.

The individuals who raised the concern are not "typical NIMBYs".  When they speak, the City of Waterloo and the City of Kitchener listen, you can be assured.  They have done a service by ensuring the issue (if there is one) is aired before anything moves forward. 

Nothing is impossible, but I doubt very much whether concern about the size of the proposal is what is driving the concern about the STEAM facility.
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#96
(06-15-2018, 11:09 AM)Markster Wrote: Is KW really so small that they can't have two places with somewhat overlapping goals? Inevitably, they will each find a niche so as to be complementary.

Also, the way they complain about the tower development itself:

Quote:they also fear its size and scale is a poor fit for the area and will have a "negative and lasting impact on the uptown core."
...
Their letter also went on to question the amount of parking available near the Waterloo site, and said it "would appear to be a continuation of the student housing towers lining King Street."

Reads as very typical NIMBY concerns: "too tall", "not enough parking", "wrong tenants".
I wonder if they live nearby?

It seems like there are two categories of issue being raised: the overlap/conflict with TheMuseum, and building design. I can’t really evaluate the overlap concern, but the building design complaints seem mostly pretty questionable to me. I’m pretty sure developers are capable of figuring out how much parking they need, and the location is right in Uptown so a building of substantial size is reasonable.
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#97
(06-15-2018, 11:09 AM)Markster Wrote: Is KW really so small that they can't have two places with somewhat overlapping goals? Inevitably, they will each find a niche so as to be complementary.

Also, the way they complain about the tower development itself:

Quote:they also fear its size and scale is a poor fit for the area and will have a "negative and lasting impact on the uptown core."
...
Their letter also went on to question the amount of parking available near the Waterloo site, and said it "would appear to be a continuation of the student housing towers lining King Street."

Reads as very typical NIMBY concerns: "too tall", "not enough parking", "wrong tenants".
I wonder if they live nearby?

NIMBY's generally don't drop MILLIONS into the community. NIMBY's show up at city hall to complain about this and that, but you'd never see them put in any real effort into bettering the community.

I doubt they live close to this potential development anyway, really, not many live in that area.

What this couple is; very successful, very wealthy, very generous. They have a real concern that their millions of dollars of donations could be all for naught if you have a second STEAM opening up less that 4KM away, one that could end up reducing both places to something that cannot be sustained.
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#98
Nimby's can very much be incredibly well off. The loudest voices against the airport are the estate owners near potential flight paths. The loudest voices against development in UpTown are those who own very nice homes in the neighbourhood associations. In Brampton, former Ontario Premier Bill Davis was one of the loudest voices against their LRT route...seeking to bend it away from the front of his large property. Marginalized voices are the ones who usually don't have the awareness, means, or connections to fight for what is best for them, and truly they are the ones most hurt by policies which make development sites so contentious, approvals so expensive, that only luxury and upmarket development can occur. The types of housing which would most benefit them, the likes of which you find northwest of the Kitchener Public Library main branch, is a type of development I can't say I've seen in the region since... well in all my time here.

If it was the similar potential programming that was the issue, they should lay off the size, parking, and other arguments. I'd be happy if we didn't see those as the crux of this design. But I have a feeling that the STEAM concern is just an opening salvo, one which, once resolved one way or the other, will be replaced by the size/parking/etc arguments we always hear.
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#99
(06-15-2018, 03:19 PM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: Nimby's can very much be incredibly well off. The loudest voices against the airport are the estate owners near potential flight paths. The loudest voices against development in UpTown are those who own very nice homes in the neighbourhood associations. In Brampton, former Ontario Premier Bill Davis was one of the loudest voices against their LRT route...seeking to bend it away from the front of his large property. Marginalized voices are the ones who usually don't have the awareness, means, or connections to fight for what is best for them, and truly they are the ones most hurt by policies which make development sites so contentious, approvals so expensive, that only luxury and upmarket development can occur. The types of housing which would most benefit them, the likes of which you find northwest of the Kitchener Public Library main branch, is a type of development I can't say I've seen in the region since... well in all my time here.

If it was the similar potential programming that was the issue, they should lay off the size, parking, and other arguments. I'd be happy if we didn't see those as the crux of this design. But I have a feeling that the STEAM concern is just an opening salvo, one which, once resolved one way or the other, will be replaced by the size/parking/etc arguments we always hear.

I'm not sure if that was a response to me, but no one is saying NIMBY's aren't well off. For example, the new office building they want to build by Google, the main NIMBY is a professor at the University.

I was saying that opposition in regards from the family that donated to THEMUSEUM is not a NIMBY issue. Why, though, they are bringing up other issues is beyond me, though the parking is a valid concern. As I mentioned before, perhaps they are worried after spending all this money in Kitchener is to have both places fail because not enough support for both places.

Far as I recall too (I worked in UTW for about 20 years), there aren't any large private dwellings in that area that a couple of this caliber would be living in. Most of the houses in that area are businesses.

Perhaps it's all just tartar sauce.
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Sorry, it did sound like you were suggesting NIMBYs weren't well off, my bad.

I wouldn't discount them potentially living in the area. Kae Elgie is an example of a NIMBY (or BANANA) who opposes intensification farther north than this site, farther south than the Bauer condos, and hosted a Jane's Walk which wanted to suggest that no more development should happen in UpTown, period.
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I had to look up BANANA....lol...there are plenty of those. Too many in fact.

With Kae Elgie, did you mean 'further south of this site' and 'further north than the Bauer condos'? I am wondering because if meant what you said, that's mostly outside UTW. (Further south of Bauer is getting into Kitchener).

Of course, unless you meant what you said, and it included UTW, then yeah, that's really Banana's.
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Out of curiosity what is the definition of well off?
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Does anyone consider TheMuseum's current programing that of a science center? Most of the exhibits I have seen do not make me think of the facility as a science center.
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(06-16-2018, 05:41 PM)rangersfan Wrote: Does anyone consider TheMuseum's current programing that of a science center? Most of the exhibits I have seen do not make me think of the facility as a science center.

Here's how they describe themselves:

We are a new kind of museum – one of ideas and experiences. No dusty objects, no collections, and no velvet ropes here. We are dedicated to presenting fresh, relevant cultural content from around the globe in unique and interactive ways that intersect art, science, culture and technology. We are a premier cultural destination and a hub for creative thinking and inspired play.

The newest part of THEMUSEUM is the Underground Studio MakerSpace in the basement:

The Underground Studio MakerSpace opened its doors in November 2016 as a hands-on learning environment for children and youth to explore the fields of Science, Technology, Engineering, Arts, and Math. Through workshops, camps and school programs, we provide access to the tools and techniques required to shape the creators, inventors and thinkers of tomorrow!
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(06-16-2018, 06:01 PM)panamaniac Wrote:
(06-16-2018, 05:41 PM)rangersfan Wrote: Does anyone consider TheMuseum's current programing that of a science center? Most of the exhibits I have seen do not make me think of the facility as a science center.

Here's how they describe themselves:

We are a new kind of museum – one of ideas and experiences. No dusty objects, no collections, and no velvet ropes here. We are dedicated to presenting fresh, relevant cultural content from around the globe in unique and interactive ways that intersect art, science, culture and technology. We are a premier cultural destination and a hub for creative thinking and inspired play.

I think they should revise this to remove the implied insult to traditional museums. Do they truly believe in the positive value of what they’re doing if they can’t promote it without casting aspersions on other types of institution? There is a place for more than one kind of exhibit. Sometimes a hands-on exhibit is great. Other times, it’s good to go to a museum, see a vase and think “hmmm, that looks like a Ming vase!”, check the sign, and find out that it actually is a for-real Ming vase from 500 years ago. Also, I doubt if TheMuseum is running the kinds of research projects the ROM does. What if the ROM advertised themselves as “a proper museum, not some johnny-come-lately without a research program”?
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