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St. Patrick's celebrations
University costs are likely security costs, unless there was some damage to property.
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How much does Oktoberfest cost? Does any of the ticket prices go towards covering similiar costs or are they in kind donations by the parties involved?
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(04-06-2018, 05:04 PM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(04-06-2018, 04:40 PM)jeffster Wrote: It's 'illegal' because it's on a public street. It's 'illegal' because there is underage drinking.  It's 'illegal' because there is public intoxication. If I go and walking on a street with a open can of beer, I'll be arrested. That's a fact. So what is going on here is 100% illegal.  This isn't a party on someones property. You and I both know that. To compare this to a traffic jam is beyond ridiculous.

How about trying to have a 'party' on your street, start handing drinks to 18 year olds, get people drunk, and see well that goes for ya.

As for "why do you call out the City of Waterloo"? This is because Waterloo doesn't enforce their own by-laws, and does nothing to contribute to the safety of this party.

The City of Kitchener puts on their own parties, legally, and they HIRE EMS, they HIRE police services, etc, not to mention use their corporate security and by-law to ensure safety of the patrons. These parties brings in money to the city primarily, but also some benefits to the region. But guess what, the region doesn't have to pony up the costs of these parties the city puts on.

If I lived in the CoW I wouldn't care if the city had to pay for it.  Just like I don't care, being a CoK taxpayer, at paying for all these events the city puts  on. Kitchener wants their drunken (within reason) rib and beer fest, their drunken (within reason) Blues Fest, and they have to pay for the added services. If I decide to benefit myself to these 'legal' parties, I can. If it's a rainout disaster, oh well...

All of the things you describe are acts committed by individuals.  They do not make a crowds act's illegal.  You cannot ascribe the crimes of one person to a group of people, no matter how geographically colocated those people are.

What is beyond ridiculous is the disregard of fundamental freedoms we have guaranteed, and the treating of students as less deserving of basic services like EMS.

Then why is it all of a sudden so different when the region pays for instead of the cities.

What "fundamental freedoms we have guaranteed" are we being denied during the "illegal" March 17th gathering?
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(04-13-2018, 12:59 PM)darts Wrote: How much does Oktoberfest cost? Does any of the ticket prices go towards covering similiar costs or are they in kind donations by the parties involved?

1,700 police hours were used at last years Oktoberfest. If we say $100/hour, that works out to $170,000 ($100/hour might be slightly on the generous side). Of that 1,700 hours, 770 hours were at the fest halls, so that leaves 930 hour x $100 for $93,000 cost to the region over the 9 days. I'd imagine that the $93,000 is covered several times over by the amount of revenue the event brings to the region. I'll throw in $50,000 for gas and wear and tear on the cruisers and the bomb squad, so perhaps $150,000 (rounding up).

Almost a certainty that it doesn't quite cost $100/hour, but I'm thinking 'overtime', 'meal allowances', and 'OMERS' and stuff like that. (Average pay for the WRPS is $115,000 * 1.3 for OMERS and other benefits -- that 30% rate is based on the rate I was given from HR since I work for the government too, (OMERS is between 9.2% and 15.8% depending on your income of that 30%). So if I say $70 * 1.30 + weekend/afternoon/night premiums + meal allowance + holiday pay payout (you get additional payout paid for an overtime) should take it close to $100/hour.)

I'd imagine the costs that the City of Waterloo incurred are some by-law officers, clean-up, and obviously city workers bringing the dump trucks over and any related damage to public property (in reference to the St. Patrick's Day party).

Now whether or not Oktoberfest contributes any additional money, I have no idea.
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(04-15-2018, 12:28 AM)MacBerry Wrote:
(04-06-2018, 05:04 PM)danbrotherston Wrote: All of the things you describe are acts committed by individuals.  They do not make a crowds act's illegal.  You cannot ascribe the crimes of one person to a group of people, no matter how geographically colocated those people are.

What is beyond ridiculous is the disregard of fundamental freedoms we have guaranteed, and the treating of students as less deserving of basic services like EMS.

Then why is it all of a sudden so different when the region pays for instead of the cities.

What "fundamental freedoms we have guaranteed" are we being denied during the "illegal" March 17th gathering?

I've said it before, I'll say it again.  The March 17th gathering is not illegal.  We aren't the type of country which has "illegal" gatherings.  China has illegal gatherings.  North Korea probably has illegal gatherings.  We don't.  Because gathering in a public place (or private place for that matter) is a guaranteed right under the charter.

You can find it in section 2, freedom of assembly.  You can also find it in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (Article 20), the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, (Article 21) and the American Convention on Human Rights (Article 15).

This right is protected whether you are gathering to protest a war, to protest not going to war, to protest another group who is protesting, or just to hang out with your friends.  All protected.  And frankly, Canada does not have a great track record of protecting this right, even as recently as the G20.
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(04-15-2018, 02:01 AM)jeffster Wrote:
(04-13-2018, 12:59 PM)darts Wrote: How much does Oktoberfest cost? Does any of the ticket prices go towards covering similiar costs or are they in kind donations by the parties involved?

1,700 police hours were used at last years Oktoberfest. If we say $100/hour, that works out to $170,000 ($100/hour might be slightly on the generous side). Of that 1,700 hours, 770 hours were at the fest halls, so that leaves 930 hour x $100 for $93,000 cost to the region over the 9 days.  I'd imagine that the $93,000 is covered several times over by the amount of revenue the event brings to the region. I'll throw in $50,000 for gas and wear and tear on the cruisers and the bomb squad, so perhaps $150,000 (rounding up).

Almost a certainty that it doesn't quite cost $100/hour, but I'm thinking 'overtime', 'meal allowances', and 'OMERS' and stuff like that.  (Average pay for the WRPS is $115,000 * 1.3 for OMERS and other benefits -- that 30% rate is based on the rate I was given from HR since I work for the government too, (OMERS is between 9.2% and 15.8% depending on your income of that 30%). So if I say $70 * 1.30 + weekend/afternoon/night premiums + meal allowance + holiday pay payout (you get additional payout paid for an overtime) should take it close to $100/hour.)

I'd imagine the costs that the City of Waterloo incurred are some by-law officers, clean-up, and obviously city workers bringing the dump trucks over and any related damage to public property.

Now whether or not Oktoberfest contributes any additional money, I have no idea.

Fest halls and events Pay for the police officers. It is called a paid duty.  You can't compare Octoberfest to and ileagl gathering.
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(04-15-2018, 08:17 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote:
(04-15-2018, 02:01 AM)jeffster Wrote: 1,700 police hours were used at last years Oktoberfest. If we say $100/hour, that works out to $170,000 ($100/hour might be slightly on the generous side). Of that 1,700 hours, 770 hours were at the fest halls, so that leaves 930 hour x $100 for $93,000 cost to the region over the 9 days.  I'd imagine that the $93,000 is covered several times over by the amount of revenue the event brings to the region. I'll throw in $50,000 for gas and wear and tear on the cruisers and the bomb squad, so perhaps $150,000 (rounding up).

Almost a certainty that it doesn't quite cost $100/hour, but I'm thinking 'overtime', 'meal allowances', and 'OMERS' and stuff like that.  (Average pay for the WRPS is $115,000 * 1.3 for OMERS and other benefits -- that 30% rate is based on the rate I was given from HR since I work for the government too, (OMERS is between 9.2% and 15.8% depending on your income of that 30%). So if I say $70 * 1.30 + weekend/afternoon/night premiums + meal allowance + holiday pay payout (you get additional payout paid for an overtime) should take it close to $100/hour.)

I'd imagine the costs that the City of Waterloo incurred are some by-law officers, clean-up, and obviously city workers bringing the dump trucks over and any related damage to public property.

Now whether or not Oktoberfest contributes any additional money, I have no idea.

Fest halls and events Pay for the police officers. It is called a paid duty.  You can't compare Octoberfest to and ileagl gathering.

It is not an illegal gathering.  You can continue to repeat a falsehood, but I will continue to call it out for being a falsehood.

As for events paying police, they pay for police on duty at the events, not the additional overtime police officers that called in for the rest of the city.
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(04-15-2018, 11:09 AM)danbrotherston Wrote:
(04-15-2018, 08:17 AM)Rainrider22 Wrote: Fest halls and events Pay for the police officers. It is called a paid duty.  You can't compare Octoberfest to and ileagl gathering.

It is not an illegal gathering.  You can continue to repeat a falsehood, but I will continue to call it out for being a falsehood.

As for events paying police, they pay for police on duty at the events, not the additional overtime police officers that called in for the rest of the city.

I believe the official line is that it is not a sustainable event.
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How is it not illegal?

The criminal code of Canada defines unlawful assembly as:
63. (1) An unlawful assembly is an assembly of three or more persons who, with intent to carry out any common purpose, assemble in such a manner or so conduct themselves when they are assembled as to cause persons in the neighbourhood of the assembly to fear, on reasonable grounds, that they
(a) will disturb the peace tumultuously; or
(b) will by that assembly needlessly and without reasonable cause provoke other persons to disturb the peace tumultuously.

Lawful assembly becoming unlawful
(2) Persons who are lawfully assembled may become an unlawful assembly if they conduct themselves with a common purpose in a manner that would have made the assembly unlawful if they had assembled in that manner for that purpose.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 64.


This event even meets the definition of riot (12 or more persons):
64. A riot is an unlawful assembly that has begun to disturb the peace tumultuously.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 65.
Everyone move to the back of the bus and we all get home faster.
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(04-15-2018, 11:33 AM)Pheidippides Wrote: How is it not illegal?

The criminal code of Canada defines unlawful assembly as:
63. (1) An unlawful assembly is an assembly of three or more persons who, with intent to carry out any common purpose, assemble in such a manner or so conduct themselves when they are assembled as to cause persons in the neighbourhood of the assembly to fear, on reasonable grounds, that they
(a) will disturb the peace tumultuously; or
(b) will by that assembly needlessly and without reasonable cause provoke other persons to disturb the peace tumultuously.

Lawful assembly becoming unlawful
(2) Persons who are lawfully assembled may become an unlawful assembly if they conduct themselves with a common purpose in a manner that would have made the assembly unlawful if they had assembled in that manner for that purpose.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 64.


This event even meets the definition of riot (12 or more persons):
64. A riot is an unlawful assembly that has begun to disturb the peace tumultuously.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 65.

How?

This event fails the following parts parts:

a)  Common intent.
b)  Disturbing the peace.

There was no rioting, no major fighting, no broad disorderly conduct.

There were individuals who engaged in illegal acts for which they were ticketed by police present.  That was not the common intent of the group.

If this was an illegal gathering the police would have shut it down.  They have publicly stated they want any excuse to do so.

Can we stop making up law now?
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