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ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit
(10-31-2017, 08:57 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: Technically they could have delivered 3 & 4 by now. Those two have been ready to ship for 2+ weeks.

Technically yes, but that wasn't the commitment. Technically we were supposed to have 14 trains a 10 months ago. Neither technicality one helps our current situation; only results matter at this point.

That's like ordering a 14 course meal at a restaurant and having it sit in the kitchen; what good is it to you there? Except in this case we called the restaurant 4 years ahead because we heard so much about the establishment's locally made specialty and wanted to make sure we got to try this local delicacy before a larger group's reservation runs the kitchen staff off their feet.

Sure, they dropped off the first course of the meal, but it was day old bread that didn't live up to the long hyped expectations, but now the rest of meal is done. You can see it, smell it, but can't quite touch it yet, and now you can't get the server's attention, and now you're getting  h-angry.
Everyone move to the back of the bus and we all get home faster.
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^ this.
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(10-31-2017, 09:41 PM)Pheidippides Wrote:
(10-31-2017, 08:57 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: Technically they could have delivered 3 & 4 by now. Those two have been ready to ship for 2+ weeks.

Technically yes, but that wasn't the commitment. Technically we were supposed to have 14 trains a 10 months ago. Neither technicality one helps our current situation; only results matter at this point.

That's like ordering a 14 course meal at a restaurant and having it sit in the kitchen; what good is it to you there? Except in this case we called the restaurant 4 years ahead because we heard so much about the establishment's locally made specialty and wanted to make sure we got to try this local delicacy before a larger group's reservation runs the kitchen staff off their feet.

Sure, they dropped off the first course of the meal, but it was day old bread that didn't live up to the long hyped expectations, but now the rest of meal is done. You can see it, smell it, but can't quite touch it yet, and now you can't get the server's attention, and now you're getting  h-angry.

That analogy falls pretty flat. You wouldn't ever have a larger group at a restaurant taste-testing the smaller group's meal. Nor would you ever have an unforeseen bug in the software that makes your meal taste good (food doesn't have software). 

The following is an non-exhaustive list of logical reasons why Bombardier could be delaying our vehicles now (this list might not even include why they are delayed):
  1. An unforeseen bug in the Operating Software discovered during testing that could: 
    1. Cause controls to be locked out resulting in the inability to apply brakes.
    2. Cause controls to be locked out resulting in the inability to apply throttle.
    3. Cause the operating software to crash resulting in the application of the emergency brakes and require a system reboot.
    4. Cause the doors to malfunction resulting in injuries to passengers.
    5. Cause the door lockout brake to engage/disengage when undesired.
  2. Metrolinx or Bombardier could have requested the use of the vehicles for multiple-unit testing (2,3,4 vehicle trains) since Metrolinx only has 2 pilots.
  3. A material deficiency in a part found during high-speed testing requiring replacement.
  4. A material deficiency in the test track resulting in a delay to track testing.
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(10-31-2017, 05:27 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: These showed up at Fairway ION Station. 
[Image: 8RDcQCr.jpg]

Also at Mill, Kitchener Market and Frederick, at least. Not Queen (yet).

(Mill's an odd choice - who's going to see them before system launch?)
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(10-31-2017, 10:50 PM)KevinL Wrote:
(10-31-2017, 05:27 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: These showed up at Fairway ION Station. 
[Image: 8RDcQCr.jpg]

Also at Mill, Kitchener Market and Frederick, at least. Not Queen (yet).

(Mill's an odd choice - who's going to see them before system launch?)

anyone walking on Ottawa I would guess. They really should be installed at all of the stations IMO.
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(Don't think I've seen this discussed before - ignore if it has)

I had a few minutes to kill outside GRH one recent evening. So I wandered around the GRH Ion stop for a few minutes. Being late at night with a raw cold wind I stepped in to the shelter to wait a bit, and found this nice button:

( Sorry if it's rotated.)

So of course I pressed it and was rewarded with a pair of infrared heaters that came on, overhead. They didn't make the shelter warm, but I could feel them on the back of my head.

So, this part of Ion is up and running. Now all we need are trains in service.


Attached Files Image(s)
   
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And here is a cruddy image of the infrared heaters lit up.


Attached Files Image(s)
   
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Very cool!

And that’s the magic of infrared heaters. Hey don’t heat the air - they heat stuff! A bit like a microwave...
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(10-31-2017, 10:17 PM)trainspotter139 Wrote: That analogy falls pretty flat. You wouldn't ever have a larger group at a restaurant taste-testing the smaller group's meal. Nor would you ever have an unforeseen bug in the software that makes your meal taste good (food doesn't have software). 

The following is an non-exhaustive list of logical reasons why Bombardier could be delaying our vehicles now (this list might not even include why they are delayed):
  1. An unforeseen bug in the Operating Software discovered during testing that could: 
    1. Cause controls to be locked out resulting in the inability to apply brakes.
    2. Cause controls to be locked out resulting in the inability to apply throttle.
    3. Cause the operating software to crash resulting in the application of the emergency brakes and require a system reboot.
    4. Cause the doors to malfunction resulting in injuries to passengers.
    5. Cause the door lockout brake to engage/disengage when undesired.
  2. Metrolinx or Bombardier could have requested the use of the vehicles for multiple-unit testing (2,3,4 vehicle trains) since Metrolinx only has 2 pilots.
  3. A material deficiency in a part found during high-speed testing requiring replacement.
  4. A material deficiency in the test track resulting in a delay to track testing.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree then.

My point was that it does not matter WHY the trains are late, it matters that they ARE late.

Bombardier has had more than enough time to work out any unforeseen/unanticipated circumstances; they chose not to budget their time wisely.
Everyone move to the back of the bus and we all get home faster.
Reply
You are missing one huge point. You keep saying Bombardier is the reason why we don’t have more trains. But you don’t know that for a fact.

...your comment about budget their time wisely is absolutely insane. Do you have *any* concept of what they’ve achieved in Millhaven, compared to Thunder Bay?
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I don't want to start an internet fight (Cause we all know those work out well),  but I think your comment Canard doesn't outweigh the issue.

While it is true they have achieved much more in Millhaven, they haven't produced what was promised... then a revised promise... then promised again...

Who other than Bombardier can we blame for this 10 month delay?  If it was Transport Canada or a supplier, they would of thrown them under the bus.  I'm sure the Region isn't refusing delivery of the next vehicles.

Personally, I don't care how my phone is built.  I expect it to be ready on the release date, and in full working order.  I don't care which plant builds my BlackBerry faster (What, you think I'd buy an iPhone?  Are you nuts?), I just want my phone.  When BlackBerry says we are releasing a new phone on Nov 18th, I expect it to be there in my hands, ready to play with, not sitting in a distribution warehouse because Bell might need my phone to test on their network cause they only have 2 pilot vehicles.

Coke
(iON has no trains and YKF has no planes) Sad
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(11-01-2017, 08:26 AM)Canard Wrote: You are missing one huge point. You keep saying Bombardier is the reason why we don’t have more trains. But you don’t know that for a fact.

...your comment about budget their time wisely is absolutely insane. Do you have *any* concept of what they’ve achieved in Millhaven, compared to Thunder Bay?

Maybe if you were a bit less mysterious, we might understand better. It sounds like you are somehow aware of something coming down the pipe that, among other things, explains some of the latest delay and provides a more reliable expectation of what is likely to happen in the near future. Right now all we know for sure is that after many delays and broken promises, the latest promise has also been broken.
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In the absence of new information, people will naturally gravitate towards conclusions based on the information they had previously, in this case, that the delay is likely related to Bombardier.

Of course it's just speculation, but no one in any official capacity has made any statement or provided new information to lead people to believe otherwise, so the speculation remains.
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The council agenda is now posted for tonight and there is no mention of Bombardier at all.

I will be the first to admit that I have been impressed by how much Bombardier has achieved at Millhaven in such a short time. When I first heard that they had to expand the facility before they could even begin ramping up production I was not optimistic that it would improve the production rate, but so far it looks as though I have been proven wrong (we’ll have to see if it also improved the production quality as well). However, the delivery schedule is still problematic.

You are correct that I am assuming that it is Bombardier’s fault the trains are not in Waterloo; because it is. Bombardier is the only one who signed a contract indicating they could deliver 14 working trains to Waterloo by December of 2016. That obligation was not met, therefore they are at fault for not fulfilling their contract.

But let’s assume the reason the trains are not sitting in the OMSF is that the freight train delivery schedule is only once a month and Bombardier is now cranking an LRV out once a week. Does that mean it is CN’s “fault” our trains are not being delivered as promised? Of course not, Bombardier should have looked in to the freight schedule, and worked that in to their schedule. Maybe if there was some sort of wildcat strike at CN that had freight traffic ground to a halt to you let Bombardier off the hook.

So then, let’s assume the reason the trains are not sitting in the OMSF is that GrandLinq/the region wants them in a more finished state and it is easier to make those kind of fixes/tweaks in Millhaven than here. Does that mean it is GrandLinq/the region’s “fault” our trains are not being delivered as promised? No, Bombardier should have had the trains in a more finished state in the first place.

To paraphrase one of the councillors: we don’t want a discount, we don’t want our money back, we don’t want compensation for missed revenue, we want our trains!

I think I will refrain from further comment on Bombardier/LRVs at this point; this is no longer a productive conversation.
Everyone move to the back of the bus and we all get home faster.
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Here's the link to the agenda (had to search for it, so figured I'd provide it for others):

https://calendar.regionofwaterloo.ca/Cou...202017.pdf
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