ION - Waterloo Region's Light Rail Transit

[timc]

I'm still amazed that people are so OK with OCS, but were all poo-poo on Monorail or any other elevated system because of the "visual obtrusion".  To me, it's very cluttered... but oh well.

I thought the poo-pooing was on cost. Why would we care about visual obstruction?

[Canard]

KW Glass is installing the roof at Conestoga!

Couple of guys are digging away at Allen.

[danbrotherston]

I'm still amazed that people are so OK with OCS, but were all poo-poo on Monorail or any other elevated system because of the "visual obtrusion".  To me, it's very cluttered... but oh well.

I thought the poo-pooing was on cost. Why would we care about visual obstruction?

I also don't think it's just the cost, but the reason for the cost.  A completely separated system like a subway or monorail I believe has a substantially higher carrying capacity then an LRT, which we just don't need here, which means that extra money is simply being spent to buy drivers more road space.  It's yet another subsidy for single occupancy vehicle commuting.

[Canard]

1/1 - Saturday, December 10

The crossing arms have been going in as well, and... well... some of them are in really awkward locations.

No arms, yet, Markster - just the drives, which were installed several weeks ago.

   

   
Beginning to string catenary on Charles.  It extends down to the anchor point just North of Grand River Hospital - two full zones.  The fixed point for this zone is between William and Allen (look for the angled brace wires, there).

   
King, between Northfield and Conestoga.

   
Choices.

[DHLawrence]

I can see the sound of those crossing bells getting really tiresome really fast for park goers and Barrelyards residents.

[Canard]

Yeah, I'm very curious how this will all work operationally, and if Transport Canada will ease any of their rules here at all (ie, bells only during arm motion, etc.).

I imagine since this is a major critical intersection it could be a synch point where they try to get both trains going through at the same time to minimize the disruption.

[C Plus]

A crew of about 10-15 working bright and early this morning setting the rails at Wellington and King. I hope they are trying to open this intersection before the dead of winter.

[timc]

I saw a crew working on Hayward yesterday. I hope they will get that one done soon too, especially since I think it was supposed to be done in November.

[KevinL]

A number of crews are downtown doing various light duties. I imagine that's easier with less traffic around.

[Drake]

I thought the poo-pooing was on cost. Why would we care about visual obstruction?

I also don't think it's just the cost, but the reason for the cost.  A completely separated system like a subway or monorail I believe has a substantially higher carrying capacity then an LRT, which we just don't need here, which means that extra money is simply being spent to buy drivers more road space.  It's yet another subsidy for single occupancy vehicle commuting.

Why does this always come back to cars? It is like a reflexive response like somehow we are trained to believe this is a fact.

I would think that the obvious advantages for a monorail system would include speed of the trips and the safety of the system.

[Canard]

I would think that the obvious advantages for a monorail system would include speed of the trips and the safety of the system.

Those are absolutely the two greatest advantages! Total grade separation means no interaction at all with any other mode, so no delays, and no chance of collisions.

Monorails come in all different flavours, too - from the minimalist guideways of the Von Roll and Siemens systems, to Chongqing's massive 8-car ALWEG style trains that run "heavy metro" style.

You can't even play the "local content" thing here, either, since Bombardier's monorail test track is in Millhaven!

But, we're getting pretty far off track (or should I say, beam?).

[danbrotherston]

...

Why does this always come back to cars? It is like a reflexive response like somehow we are trained to believe this is a fact.

I would think that the obvious advantages for a monorail system would include speed of the trips and the safety of the system.

It's not a reflexive response, it's an appropriate one. I mean, unless you believe that above or below a subway on King St. the extra street space would be turned into bike lanes, side walks, and parks? No, it would be turned into vehicle lanes.

I'm not suggesting that you or even anyone (besides the former Mayor of Toronto) who argues for a subway or an elevated system is advocating additional subsidies for cars.

There are obviously other advantages. But probably not as substantial as you think. LRTs operate safely all over the world, in highly pedestrianized areas. I really don't think there's a big safety advantage. There might be some speed advantage. But certainly many people might think about this when suggesting grade separation. There are also disadvantages.

And certainly some segments of the population just like the idea of grade separation, in terms of cool factor.

But when you get to the economics of it, without regard for feelings or emotions, an LRT system as we are building is a good fit for our city, in terms of capacity needs and space needs. If you were to build a subway instead the effect would be to subsidize more space for cars. That's simply the economics of it.

[mpd618]

There might be some speed advantage.

Have a look at those LRT speed limit signs that are going up along the line, and the number of signalized intersections that the Region has shown no willingness to make always green for LRT. There would have been a clear speed advantage to a grade separated line. (There would also have been a cost in time to access the platform.)

But when you get to the economics of it, without regard for feelings or emotions, an LRT system as we are building is a good fit for our city, in terms of capacity needs and space needs.  If you were to build a subway instead the effect would be to subsidize more space for cars.  That's simply the economics of it.

Talking about "simply the economics" in terms of capacity and space is weird for a rapid transit line that is about shaping the built environment and guiding new development. Those aren't emotion-free decisions, and neither are the decisions made by prospective riders.

That said, unless there really is something new we're finding out here, relitigating the technology choice for this particular nearing-completion transit line isn't particularly valuable.

[Drake]

Why would I believe that lanes of traffic that had been used by cars for years would be used for anything other than cars if a monorail or subway was built?

As for it not being safer, that is just ridiculous.

[danbrotherston]

Why would I believe that lanes of traffic that had been used by cars for years would be used for anything other than cars if a monorail or subway was built?

As for it not being safer, that is just ridiculous.

There you go then, if a grade separated line was built, the benefit would be that drivers keep four lanes on King St.  

How is it "ridiculous" that it isn't safer?  LRTs are very safe, (except in Houston apparently).  And subways aren't free from accidents, nor are monorails.

So I don't see why it is "ridiculous" to suggest that it's not clearly a win in terms of safety.


@mpd618 Yes the speed limits are disappointing, as for "always green", they're green to keep the train on schedule, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.  But that's a policy decision, not an inherent limitation of the LRT technology.  There's no reason that a grade separated train couldn't be similarly limited.  Like I said though, there might be a difference in speed.

You are right, that there is an urban planning aspect to it.  Is there evidence that a subway or monorail is more effective at shaping the urban landscape?  I honestly don't know.  I would guess that having a four lane road instead of a two lane road might have a detrimental effect, although I have no idea how either compares with an LRT right of way.

I don't know that there is something new being discussed.  But there are always new members who might be interested in discussing, or understanding why grade separated isn't always the best choice.  I certainly am in that camp.  For a long time I thought the only good thing about Rob Ford was that he demanded subways (I mean besides the fact I felt he would never actually pay for them), but after reading up on it more, I now feel that LRTs have their place in the right contexts.