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One Victoria | 63 m | 19 fl | Complete
(02-16-2016, 03:27 PM)GtwoK Wrote:
(02-16-2016, 02:47 PM)MidTowner Wrote: I think it will be really nice to see an independent here. Settlement seems like a nice place- and, unlike Starbucks, it serves alcohol.

While I agree with you that I would prefer to see a Settlement Co here, I believe Starbucks is set to start serving alcohol this year in Canada.

the thing about Starbucks is that it really is a pedestrian traffic driver. It is a 'destination' for a lot of people - meaning they would go out of their way just to go to Starbucks. It really activates any sidewalk with pedestrian flow.
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(02-16-2016, 03:43 PM)insider Wrote: the thing about Starbucks is that it really is a pedestrian traffic driver. It is a 'destination' for a lot of people - meaning they would go out of their way just to go to Starbucks. It really activates any sidewalk with pedestrian flow.

What I heard is that Starbucks pulled out for lack of a drive-thru, so they seem to think it's a destination but not for pedestrians.

I much prefer Settlement Co, personally!
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(02-16-2016, 04:44 PM)mpd618 Wrote: What I heard is that Starbucks pulled out for lack of a drive-thru, so they seem to think it's a destination but not for pedestrians.

Really? You mean someone honestly thought at one point that a drive-through at this spot would be possible?

I’ve read that, for Starbucks, drive-through business is increasingly important. I’ve never heard it suggested that they were insisting on them.

I think any coffee shop at this location would do fairly brisk business, and the amount of foot traffic on this corner will only grow.
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(02-16-2016, 02:47 PM)MidTowner Wrote:
(02-16-2016, 02:45 PM)jordan2423 Wrote: I really think they should have opened a Starbucks or a Williams.

I think it will be really nice to see an independent here. Settlement seems like a nice place- and, unlike Starbucks, it serves alcohol.

I don't drink so I guess that doesn't make much of a difference  Big Grin
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(02-16-2016, 04:47 PM)MidTowner Wrote: Really? You mean someone honestly thought at one point that a drive-through at this spot would be possible?

I’ve read that, for Starbucks, drive-through business is increasingly important. I’ve never heard it suggested that they were insisting on them.

I imagine that Starbucks has a formula they use to determine if a location is worth it, and it doesn't surprise me that they would look at the pedestrian volumes at this corner, and say that a location here would need a drive through (or plentiful, convenient parking) to make it work.

It's not to say that a coffee shop wouldn't work. It's to say that Starbucks would not meet their desired sales volumes for a new expansion location.
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(02-16-2016, 05:32 PM)Markster Wrote:
(02-16-2016, 04:47 PM)MidTowner Wrote: Really? You mean someone honestly thought at one point that a drive-through at this spot would be possible?

I’ve read that, for Starbucks, drive-through business is increasingly important. I’ve never heard it suggested that they were insisting on them.

I imagine that Starbucks has a formula they use to determine if a location is worth it, and it doesn't surprise me that they would look at the pedestrian volumes at this corner, and say that a location here would need a drive through (or plentiful, convenient parking) to make it work.

It's not to say that a coffee shop wouldn't work.  It's to say that Starbucks would not meet their desired sales volumes for a new expansion location.

Look for new Starbucks in both the King Victoria Hub (2-4 years out) and in the Zehrs' property development across the street from GOOGLE offices (also 2-4 years out) ... 

FYI a new express service model Starbucks opened this week at Toronto's Union Station so this may also be contender once they figure out the traffic needed to pay rent and salaries in 2018 or ...
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Why do Google's offices matter? They have Smile Tiger coffee brought in. What I constantly hear about tech companies is that it's great that they have special coffee and catered meals brought in. Wouldn't this make them even less likely to be patronizing businesses a walk away, farther than the internal options, and farther than the on-site (e.g. Balzac's) options? Let alone a (speculative) distaste for mass-market? I'd imagine they'd be less likely at Google or Tannery to visit a Starbucks there than a Settlement Co.
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(02-17-2016, 08:33 AM)Viewfromthe42 Wrote: Why do Google's offices matter? They have Smile Tiger coffee brought in. What I constantly hear about tech companies is that it's great that they have special coffee and catered meals brought in. Wouldn't this make them even less likely to be patronizing businesses a walk away, farther than the internal options, and farther than the on-site (e.g. Balzac's) options? Let alone a (speculative) distaste for mass-market? I'd imagine they'd be less likely at Google or Tannery to visit a Starbucks there than a Settlement Co.

That's exactly the reason why after some time, many of them just want to get out for a coffee somewhere else - only to get fresh air!
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(02-16-2016, 05:32 PM)Markster Wrote: I imagine that Starbucks has a formula they use to determine if a location is worth it, and it doesn't surprise me that they would look at the pedestrian volumes at this corner, and say that a location here would need a drive through (or plentiful, convenient parking) to make it work.

It's not to say that a coffee shop wouldn't work.  It's to say that Starbucks would not meet their desired sales volumes for a new expansion location.

I guess that formula shows that no one east (Kitchener: North) of the expressway drinks coffee.  Will be so happy when they open a spot close to home.  (Or when ANY coffee place opens between my house and the airport!)

Coke
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(02-16-2016, 10:22 PM)MacBerry Wrote:
(02-16-2016, 05:32 PM)Markster Wrote: I imagine that Starbucks has a formula they use to determine if a location is worth it, and it doesn't surprise me that they would look at the pedestrian volumes at this corner, and say that a location here would need a drive through (or plentiful, convenient parking) to make it work.

It's not to say that a coffee shop wouldn't work.  It's to say that Starbucks would not meet their desired sales volumes for a new expansion location.

Look for new Starbucks in both the King Victoria Hub (2-4 years out) and in the Zehrs' property development across the street from GOOGLE offices (also 2-4 years out) ... 

FYI a new express service model Starbucks opened this week at Toronto's Union Station so this may also be contender once they figure out the traffic needed to pay rent and salaries in 2018 or ...

You'd have to think that this is the type of location where they would want to be if nowhere else.  But maybe it's just me?
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I would guess Starbucks knows what they are doing when they pick locations and downtown Kitchener has a lot of upscale coffee choices nearby already so the market may not be big enough to support a walk-in only starbucks. They pay the employees pretty well and have good benefits apparently so I would guess they need a high volume of customers to keep a location profitable.
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(02-18-2016, 09:03 AM)clasher Wrote: I would guess Starbucks knows what they are doing when they pick locations and downtown Kitchener has a lot of upscale coffee choices nearby already so the market may not be big enough to support a walk-in only starbucks. They pay the employees pretty well and have good benefits apparently so I would guess they need a high volume of customers to keep a location profitable.

I agree.

I can't understand why people think this is such a great location.  West is a railroad track and then the Breightaupt Block who's major tenant is dedicated to making sure nobody ever leaves the office.  South, the Tannery has a good coffee shop.  East, there is a coffee in 305 King.  North their will be Smile Tiger.  When the transit hub is finally built (??), it will have coffee in it so people will not go kitty corner across the street for it.

There is no good parking and this area is still very car oriented (for the foreseeable future).  There is basically no pedestrian foot traffic around there (I concede there will be a bit more when 1 Vic opens up).  But there is just no convenience to this location.

Starbucks does not enter markets before they are ready.  They pay top, top rent for good locations when a place can support their business model.

Now roast me..... Smile
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(02-16-2016, 02:45 PM)jordan2423 Wrote: I really think they should have opened a Starbucks or a Williams.

Those chains are highly unlikely to serve as a destination. They are not a destination these days because we already have these chains with locations all over town. That would perhaps be different if this were to be the first or second location for either chain in the region but in some parts of town Starbucks in particular is more ubiquitous than Tim Horton's these days.

Settlement will be good for downtown because like Balzacs and Smile Tiger they are focused on quality rather than volume. They serve better coffee, a greater variety of coffee and baked goods that rival most of the best bakeries around. Its the stuff people go out of their way for. 

Further to that, shops like these (proliferating into one general area like this) have a tendency to legitimize places in which they locate as cool and can serve as catalysts for attracting employers and residents. They are creators of gentrification, if you will. Uptown's image as the place to live and work over downtown is just that little bit more eroded. 

I'll add though that I'm surprised by this move as I have heard lease rates in this building, all-in were in the $50 sq/ft range so the sales volume will need to be there if Settlement is to survive long term.
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(02-18-2016, 11:13 AM)dubya Wrote:
(02-16-2016, 02:45 PM)jordan2423 Wrote: I really think they should have opened a Starbucks or a Williams.

Those chains are highly unlikely to serve as a destination. They are not a destination these days because we already have these chains with locations all over town. That would perhaps be different if this were to be the first or second location for either chain in the region but in some parts of town Starbucks in particular is more ubiquitous than Tim Horton's these days.

Settlement will be good for downtown because like Balzacs and Smile Tiger and Matter of Taste they are focused on quality rather than volume. They serve better coffee, a greater variety of coffee and baked goods that rival most of the best bakeries around. Its the stuff people go out of their way for. 

Further to that, shops like these (proliferating into one general area like this) have a tendency to legitimize places in which they locate as cool and can serve as catalysts for attracting employers and residents. They are creators of gentrification, if you will. Uptown's image as the place to live and work over downtown is just that little bit more eroded. 

I'll add though that I'm surprised by this move as I have heard lease rates in this building, all-in were in the $50 sq/ft range so the sales volume will need to be there if Settlement is to survive long term.


Thought your post needed a small tweak!  Smile
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(02-18-2016, 11:03 AM)REnerd Wrote: I can't understand why people think this is such a great location.  West is a railroad track and then the Breightaupt Block who's major tenant is dedicated to making sure nobody ever leaves the office.  South, the Tannery has a good coffee shop.  East, there is a coffee in 305 King.  North their will be Smile Tiger.  When the transit hub is finally built (??), it will have coffee in it so people will not go kitty corner across the street for it.

There is no good parking and this area is still very car oriented (for the foreseeable future).  There is basically no pedestrian foot traffic around there (I concede there will be a bit more when 1 Vic opens up).  But there is just no convenience to this location.

Starbucks does not enter markets before they are ready.  They pay top, top rent for good locations when a place can support their business model.

Now roast me..... Smile
There’s going to be a few hundred people passing by on the elevators from their apartments on top of the café. A few hundred people live right across the road in the Kaufman Lofts and this location will be the closest coffee or food of any kind to them, too. There are a couple of hundred students right across the street at the School of Pharmacy, and however many people walk by King and Victoria to get to downtown from the west/north, or to the Tannery.

It is still a very car-oriented area, but there are major bus stops very close by and I think a pretty significant amount of feet on the street, likely to grow.

Wonderful pun.

Dubya, I like your comment about shops like this one congregating in a certain area and “legitimizing” it. I hope that happens here.
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