Charles St GRT terminal redevelopment

[panamaniac]

I biked past this site on Tuesday and some drilling was happening. Likely for testing the soil.

I won't be surprised if it is super contaminated. Not just from the busses, but likely from the previous operation that was there. I'm too young to remember what was there first.

The site was previously occupied by Bullas Furniture, but it wouldn't be surprising if the contaminants from the old gasification plant across Gaukel have spread to areas "east" of those that were decontaminated in the giant clean-up ten years or so ago.   I can't remember, did that clean-up extend east of Gaukel at all?  I want to say that the fountain was replaced at that time, but I really am not sure.

[danbrotherston]

I biked past this site on Tuesday and some drilling was happening. Likely for testing the soil.

I won't be surprised if it is super contaminated. Not just from the busses, but likely from the previous operation that was there. I'm too young to remember what was there first.

I thought it had been remediated previously. IIRC the underground utilities in the area were all encased in concrete to reduce the risk of contamination, and this delayed the LRT construction, but the utilities were encased in concrete when the area was remediated.

I doubt...even in the 80s, the site would have been able to have been occupied like that when contaminated.

[jeffster]

I won't be surprised if it is super contaminated. Not just from the busses, but likely from the previous operation that was there. I'm too young to remember what was there first.

I thought it had been remediated previously. IIRC the underground utilities in the area were all encased in concrete to reduce the risk of contamination, and this delayed the LRT construction, but the utilities were encased in concrete when the area was remediated.

I doubt...even in the 80s, the site would have been able to have been occupied like that when contaminated.

I am probably wrong, but I vaguely seem to recall back in the mid 80's when this thing was proposed and built that there were some issue, but they were sort of swept the issues under the rug because of the build type - not residential, and heavy vehicles spewing fumes and noxious liquids for 19 hours a day.

[ijmorlan]

I thought it had been remediated previously. IIRC the underground utilities in the area were all encased in concrete to reduce the risk of contamination, and this delayed the LRT construction, but the utilities were encased in concrete when the area was remediated.

I doubt...even in the 80s, the site would have been able to have been occupied like that when contaminated.

I am probably wrong, but I vaguely seem to recall back in the mid 80's when this thing was proposed and built that there were some issue, but they were sort of swept the issues under the rug because of the build type - not residential, and heavy vehicles spewing fumes and noxious liquids for 19 hours a day.

It’s hard to see how the condition of the soil under the pavement can have much effect on bus operations.

But I have the same question about a lot of these things. I don’t understand how it can be OK to leave a site contaminated indefinitely but not OK to pave it over permanently and entomb the contamination under a concrete foundation.

On the other hand if the issue just the expense of cleaning all the soil dug up to place the deep foundation of a large structure then I understand.

[danbrotherston]

I am probably wrong, but I vaguely seem to recall back in the mid 80's when this thing was proposed and built that there were some issue, but they were sort of swept the issues under the rug because of the build type - not residential, and heavy vehicles spewing fumes and noxious liquids for 19 hours a day.

It’s hard to see how the condition of the soil under the pavement can have much effect on bus operations.

But I have the same question about a lot of these things. I don’t understand how it can be OK to leave a site contaminated indefinitely but not OK to pave it over permanently and entomb the contamination under a concrete foundation.

On the other hand if the issue just the expense of cleaning all the soil dug up to place the deep foundation of a large structure then I understand.

I certainly wasn't there in the 80s to know what was done or what was swept under the rug.

But generally contaminated sites must be cleaned up if they are going to be occupied by people. The region seems to have gotten an exception for cleaning up the site along the tracks behind UW's buildings where the new trail runs on the "people are not staying here, they are only moving through" exception, but given that there are employees on the site of the GRT station and passengers waiting, I don't think the same exception would apply. I am not sure if "entombing" the ground would be an acceptable mediation, but that certainly doesn't apply at the bus terminal given it has grass and gardens and cracked concrete. There is also the risk of leaching from water seepage.

Like I said, I don't know what happened in the 80s, but my understanding is that should have been cleaned up. If it wasn't, that would be a shame, but it would also be a big piss off, I've spent a lot of time at that bus terminal waiting for buses. To be honest, I'm not thrilled about the trail behind UW...although I'll admit I don't know enough about the risks and specific contamination to have an informed understanding.

[neonjoe]

It’s hard to see how the condition of the soil under the pavement can have much effect on bus operations.

But I have the same question about a lot of these things. I don’t understand how it can be OK to leave a site contaminated indefinitely but not OK to pave it over permanently and entomb the contamination under a concrete foundation.

On the other hand if the issue just the expense of cleaning all the soil dug up to place the deep foundation of a large structure then I understand.

I certainly wasn't there in the 80s to know what was done or what was swept under the rug.

But generally contaminated sites must be cleaned up if they are going to be occupied by people. The region seems to have gotten an exception for cleaning up the site along the tracks behind UW's buildings where the new trail runs on the "people are not staying here, they are only moving through" exception, but given that there are employees on the site of the GRT station and passengers waiting, I don't think the same exception would apply. I am not sure if "entombing" the ground would be an acceptable mediation, but that certainly doesn't apply at the bus terminal given it has grass and gardens and cracked concrete. There is also the risk of leaching from water seepage.

Like I said, I don't know what happened in the 80s, but my understanding is that should have been cleaned up. If it wasn't, that would be a shame, but it would also be a big piss off, I've spent a lot of time at that bus terminal waiting for buses. To be honest, I'm not thrilled about the trail behind UW...although I'll admit I don't know enough about the risks and specific contamination to have an informed understanding.

We do have to note that the terminal was built by the COK in the late 80s so things may be different. It wasn't transferred to the Region until the last round of service uploads during the municipal upheaval caused by Mike Harris.

[SF22]

"Region set to move ahead with remediation of soil/groundwater contamination at former bus terminal in Kitchener"

TL;DR: Region staff is looking for council approval to get started to the site cleanup at the Charles St terminal. Apparently the contamination isn't as bad as was expected, even considering the site's history as a coal gasification plant. 

A regional and city staff group is working together, including the addition of 5 "community connectors" this summer ("These five people, with lived experience, will be paid for their work in the group. 'We want to look at different ways to connect with community here. We are looking outside of our traditional communication channels.'") 

Article noted that 2.6 acres of the site is owned by the region, and the parking lot at Charles/Ontario is owned by Kitchener. It'll be interesting to see if a land-swap is made in exchange for a property elsewhere in the city, or if it will be directly sold between region/city.

https://www.therecord.com/news/waterloo-...hener.html

[Bytor]

and the parking lot at Charles/Ontario is owned by Kitchener. It'll be interesting to see if a land-swap is made in exchange for a property elsewhere in the city, or if it will be directly sold between region/city.

Parking lot? Do they mean the one in front of Mi Tienda Latina & Hasty Market? Surely not the one kittycorner?

[neonjoe]

and the parking lot at Charles/Ontario is owned by Kitchener. It'll be interesting to see if a land-swap is made in exchange for a property elsewhere in the city, or if it will be directly sold between region/city.

Parking lot? Do they mean the one in front of Mi Tienda Latina & Hasty Market? Surely not the one kittycorner?

The lot just to the left of the main entrance into the former terminal.

[Bytor]

I always forget that one is there.

[ac3r]

NGL I'll feel bad for the homeless woman - Anita - who lives here. She has been living in the little sheltered area on the front left of the building, next to the deck where the old restaurant was. She's a nice lady, calm, keeps to herself, not addicted to fentanyl and animal tranq (shocking, right?) and just reads a bible all day. People have always been kind to her since she's fairly introverted. I used to bring her food and shovel the snow out of that area when I was able to and when the hospital ran the Covid testing centre there, they would do that as well.

Police, city and regional employees always leave her alone. But I wonder where she'll end up having to go once they redevelop this property. Sadly, we all know they won't do anything for her, they'll just kick her down the street a bit so they can redevelop it for the wealthy classes. A lot of church groups/religious individuals assist her though...so hopefully they can do something. From what I know she doesn't want to live in a shelter or anything (I'm guessing schizophrenia, who knows?) so finding somewhere else that is vaguely "safe" and sheltered will be challenging.

I mean it would be really awesome of the Region of Waterloo and City of Kitchener could use this property to help people like this. You could fit a couple towers with hundreds of new affordable and transitional homes, social services on this site and even have room left over to expand the park! But the homeless and mentally ill don't contribute anything to the tax coffers and revenues of private companies, so they aren't going to give a shit. It'll probably become condos or get torn down and fenced up while it sits dormant for a decade, just like the transit hub property...heh.

[panamaniac]

NGL I'll feel bad for the homeless woman - Anita - who lives here. She has been living in the little sheltered area on the front left of the building, next to the deck where the old restaurant was. She's a nice lady, calm, keeps to herself, not addicted to fentanyl and animal tranq (shocking, right?) and just reads a bible all day. People have always been kind to her since she's fairly introverted. I used to bring her food and shovel the snow out of that area when I was able to and when the hospital ran the Covid testing centre there, they would do that as well.

Police, city and regional employees always leave her alone. But I wonder where she'll end up having to go once they redevelop this property. Sadly, we all know they won't do anything for her, they'll just kick her down the street a bit so they can redevelop it for the wealthy classes. A lot of church groups/religious individuals assist her though...so hopefully they can do something. From what I know she doesn't want to live in a shelter or anything (I'm guessing schizophrenia, who knows?) so finding somewhere else that is vaguely "safe" and sheltered will be challenging.

I mean it would be really awesome of the Region of Waterloo and City of Kitchener could use this property to help people like this. You could fit a couple towers with hundreds of new affordable and transitional homes, social services on this site and even have room left over to expand the park! But the homeless and mentally ill don't contribute anything to the tax coffers and revenues of private companies, so they aren't going to give a shit. It'll probably become condos or get torn down and fenced up while it sits dormant for a decade, just like the transit hub property...heh.

It would make more sense to sell this site for top dollar and use the funds to build public housing/social services in a less expensive location.  Imo.

[ac3r]

So, kick the can down the road some more? No real solution, no tangible effort. Just...hey...here's some money. Go away. No, actually, go over there. Okay fine, go there. Stop complaining, we gave you enough, the voters stopped writing angry e-mails! Sigh, okay, here are some garden sheds. They're beside the landfill by the way. No there are no buses out there, but you get to feel like the how tax payers see you: literal garbage.

Come on dude lol. These people deserve more. They deserve homes and services downtown (beyond just homeless encampments). It could be a perfect place to build a community focused on rehabilitation, education, health and stability. Not everything is about "cost". It's sad so many people have been conditioned to think this way.

This place is central to the region, services, parks and recreation, transit. Why not turn it into something valuable? That is, value beyond the monetary? I'd rather see something useful than another condo tower bought up by Indian and Chinese dudes who probably couldn't even point out Waterloo Region on a map. It could be a great mixed used facility with affordable/transitional housing, health and addiction medical care, education, community space, recreational space an area for general public use and even some commercial use. Selling it to someone is just stupid.

[Acitta]

Downtown Kitchener (DTK) Community - Charles Street Terminal Visioning Survey


The Region of Waterloo and City of Kitchener are working towards a vision for a mixed-use development on the former Charles Street Terminal site, in the heart of downtown Kitchener, and are actively seeking input from the downtown Kitchener community. This vision will be informed by environmental and technical findings, financial modelling and community engagement.

[Rainrider22]

completed the survey...