ION Phase 2 - Cambridge's Light Rail Transit

[Acitta]

Let's just put Xi Jinping in charge for a few years and the CCP will have high speed rail lines crisscrossing the entire North American continent connecting all of our cities and then those cities will all get dozens of subway/light rail/tram/bus lines with massively dense and walkable neighbourhood because we won't have to worry about bullshit like populist politicians blocking national progress in the name of fiscal conservatism or a group of bored NIMBYs blocking even just a single apartment building from being constructed. 共同富裕 please! :'P

Good idea, except that everybody who comments on this forum will probably end up in a re-education camp!

[dunkalunk]

Is there a rail alignment that would enable them to still transport LRVs to the KW ION section and O&M facilities without connecting the two? To me, it seems like so much of the cost is bridging (literally and figuratively) the space between KW and Cambridge with the Preston/Eagle St. mess in the middle making it worse.

Though one would want to eventually connect them, is there an alternate reality where Hespeler - Cambridge North - Galt is its own leg of LRT with a BRT in the middle? I imagine the crossing at the Grand plus all the elevated sections between Fairview and Pinebush are much of this cost escalation, while I don't really understand if the passengers going from Cambridge to Kitchener are really that large in number vs. their respective intracity stops. Just seems like a huge amount of cost, if it were that much, vs. the relative utility of building another 1-2 alignments in K-W and making something more flexible to link Cambridge.

In the original route evaluation, I remember that BRT performed better between Fairway and Pinebush than LRT did because of the existing highways that are there.

Given the distances, lack of development potential on Floodplains and in Hidden Valley, and the current maximum speed of our LRVs, the connection between Kitchener and Cambridge really ought to be something more like an inter-urban EMU mainline rail service more than an extension of the existing ION line, or a full BRT line. I can't imagine the existing alignment will be any faster than the combination of Highway 8 and 401 to get to Pinebush station. 

I also have trouble seeing the development potential along Hespeler Road without removing the transport trucks from it first. I imagine we will be seeing both the GO rail service between Guelph and Cambridge  as well as the East/South Cambridge bypass road built before we see any movement on the current ION alignment.

[bravado]

Is there a rail alignment that would enable them to still transport LRVs to the KW ION section and O&M facilities without connecting the two? To me, it seems like so much of the cost is bridging (literally and figuratively) the space between KW and Cambridge with the Preston/Eagle St. mess in the middle making it worse.

Though one would want to eventually connect them, is there an alternate reality where Hespeler - Cambridge North - Galt is its own leg of LRT with a BRT in the middle? I imagine the crossing at the Grand plus all the elevated sections between Fairview and Pinebush are much of this cost escalation, while I don't really understand if the passengers going from Cambridge to Kitchener are really that large in number vs. their respective intracity stops. Just seems like a huge amount of cost, if it were that much, vs. the relative utility of building another 1-2 alignments in K-W and making something more flexible to link Cambridge.

In the original route evaluation, I remember that BRT performed better between Fairway and Pinebush than LRT did because of the existing highways that are there.

Given the distances, lack of development potential on Floodplains and in Hidden Valley, and the current maximum speed of our LRVs, the connection between Kitchener and Cambridge really ought to be something more like an inter-urban EMU mainline rail service more than an extension of the existing ION line, or a full BRT line. I can't imagine the existing alignment will be any faster than the combination of Highway 8 and 401 to get to Pinebush station. 

I also have trouble seeing the development potential along Hespeler Road without removing the transport trucks from it first. I imagine we will be seeing both the GO rail service between Guelph and Cambridge  as well as the East/South Cambridge bypass road built before we see any movement on the current ION alignment.

As for truck traffic on Hespeler, the "East Boundary Road" and McQueen Shaver project is still ongoing as a truck bypass.

[ijmorlan]

Let's just put Xi Jinping in charge for a few years and the CCP will have high speed rail lines crisscrossing the entire North American continent connecting all of our cities and then those cities will all get dozens of subway/light rail/tram/bus lines with massively dense and walkable neighbourhood because we won't have to worry about bullshit like populist politicians blocking national progress in the name of fiscal conservatism or a group of bored NIMBYs blocking even just a single apartment building from being constructed. 共同富裕 please! :'P

Good idea, except that everybody who comments on this forum will probably end up in a re-education camp!

And everything with any character will be knocked down and replaced with huge identical tower blocks.

[ijmorlan]

Again, follow the money. There is a reason that everyone involved in something like this lives in a McMansion .. except for those actually doing the work.

You have evidence for this absurd and libellous accusation (OK, probably not libellous because you didn’t single out any specific individuals, but still absurd)?

Unfortunately, the problems are harder to figure out than a simple case of corruption. Scapegoating is easy. Understanding what is being done in construction that is causing the costs to balloon unreasonably is much harder.

[Acitta]

Good idea, except that everybody who comments on this forum will probably end up in a re-education camp!

And everything with any character will be knocked down and replaced with huge identical tower blocks.

I am not sure about that. Chinese cities have some really good-looking buildings.

[clasher]

Look at the Eglinton LRT boondoggle for where the money all goes.

[danbrotherston]

Again, follow the money. There is a reason that everyone involved in something like this lives in a McMansion .. except for those actually doing the work.

You have evidence for this absurd and libellous accusation (OK, probably not libellous because you didn’t single out any specific individuals, but still absurd)?

Unfortunately, the problems are harder to figure out than a simple case of corruption. Scapegoating is easy. Understanding what is being done in construction that is causing the costs to balloon unreasonably is much harder.

I have to agree with ijmorlan here...

The costs of the LRT have more to do with our ridiculous engineering and consulting practices intended to reduce liability than it does corruption. I don't see open corruption here.

I see the same engineering practices which demand 3.6 meter wide lanes on residential streets at play here.

I've added this topic to my future articles list for my newsletter.

[ac3r]

Good idea, except that everybody who comments on this forum will probably end up in a re-education camp!

And everything with any character will be knocked down and replaced with huge identical tower blocks.

I never thought of that. I'd hate for all those Activa suburbs to get turned into dense apartment blocks. Worse, losing the architectural heritage of places like the Northdale neighbourhood would be catastrophic.

Joking aside, yeah the Commie Blocks of China are pretty ugly, but no worse than what we build here. At least their cities and infrastructure work.

[ijmorlan]

And everything with any character will be knocked down and replaced with huge identical tower blocks.

I never thought of that. I'd hate for all those Activa suburbs to get turned into dense apartment blocks. Worse, losing the architectural heritage of places like the Northdale neighbourhood would be catastrophic.

Joking aside, yeah the Commie Blocks of China are pretty ugly, but no worse than what we build here. At least their cities and infrastructure work.

I wasn’t talking about Activa or Northdale

I agree the sooner those areas acquire some unruly character the better.

[Bytor]

And everything with any character will be knocked down and replaced with huge identical tower blocks.

I never thought of that. I'd hate for all those Activa suburbs to get turned into dense apartment blocks. Worse, losing the architectural heritage of places like the Northdale neighbourhood would be catastrophic.

Joking aside, yeah the Commie Blocks of China are pretty ugly, but no worse than what we build here. At least their cities and infrastructure work.

Their infrastructure is also way newer.

What are their cities going to look like when their water pipes are 100 years old, like some of the ones that were replaced in Downtown and Uptown alongside LRT construction?

[plam]

I never thought of that. I'd hate for all those Activa suburbs to get turned into dense apartment blocks. Worse, losing the architectural heritage of places like the Northdale neighbourhood would be catastrophic.

Joking aside, yeah the Commie Blocks of China are pretty ugly, but no worse than what we build here. At least their cities and infrastructure work.

Their infrastructure is also way newer.

What are their cities going to look like when their water pipes are 100 years old, like some of the ones that were replaced in Downtown and Uptown alongside LRT construction?

It's not like their water pipes actually carry potable water today either. Like, the grass isn't greener in all respects, and in particular it is not greener in that respect, which is kind of terrible.

[cherrypark]

Is there a rail alignment that would enable them to still transport LRVs to the KW ION section and O&M facilities without connecting the two? To me, it seems like so much of the cost is bridging (literally and figuratively) the space between KW and Cambridge with the Preston/Eagle St. mess in the middle making it worse.

Though one would want to eventually connect them, is there an alternate reality where Hespeler - Cambridge North - Galt is its own leg of LRT with a BRT in the middle? I imagine the crossing at the Grand plus all the elevated sections between Fairview and Pinebush are much of this cost escalation, while I don't really understand if the passengers going from Cambridge to Kitchener are really that large in number vs. their respective intracity stops. Just seems like a huge amount of cost, if it were that much, vs. the relative utility of building another 1-2 alignments in K-W and making something more flexible to link Cambridge.

In the original route evaluation, I remember that BRT performed better between Fairway and Pinebush than LRT did because of the existing highways that are there.

Given the distances, lack of development potential on Floodplains and in Hidden Valley, and the current maximum speed of our LRVs, the connection between Kitchener and Cambridge really ought to be something more like an inter-urban EMU mainline rail service more than an extension of the existing ION line, or a full BRT line. I can't imagine the existing alignment will be any faster than the combination of Highway 8 and 401 to get to Pinebush station. 

I also have trouble seeing the development potential along Hespeler Road without removing the transport trucks from it first. I imagine we will be seeing both the GO rail service between Guelph and Cambridge  as well as the East/South Cambridge bypass road built before we see any movement on the current ION alignment.

Yeah this and ZEBuilder's response is where my reasoning lies. I realize Dan's point is partly correct that its not necessarily fully divisible since a ton of the escalating costs here are layers of engineering, though I would guess all the bridging and elevated sections are a huge magnet for that pile on.

It just seems that the tri-cities municipal arrangement is leading to a sense this has to be one continuous system, when I don't see how this is the most efficient use of funds in the mid-term when more LRT service or expanded BRT could serve more people in more parts of the region than such a large and costly span from Fairview to Pinebush, which I'm not convinced with the jogs and extra legs (for the miserable conclusion on Eagle St. et al) isn't already becoming too long to be useful.

[bravado]

Any compromise that gets picked is just going to be another case of Cambridge not being worth as much as the other 2 “real” cities.

[nms]

Is there a rail alignment that would enable them to still transport LRVs to the KW ION section and O&M facilities without connecting the two? To me, it seems like so much of the cost is bridging (literally and figuratively) the space between KW and Cambridge with the Preston/Eagle St. mess in the middle making it worse.

Though one would want to eventually connect them, is there an alternate reality where Hespeler - Cambridge North - Galt is its own leg of LRT with a BRT in the middle? I imagine the crossing at the Grand plus all the elevated sections between Fairview and Pinebush are much of this cost escalation, while I don't really understand if the passengers going from Cambridge to Kitchener are really that large in number vs. their respective intracity stops. Just seems like a huge amount of cost, if it were that much, vs. the relative utility of building another 1-2 alignments in K-W and making something more flexible to link Cambridge.

In the original route evaluation, I remember that BRT performed better between Fairway and Pinebush than LRT did because of the existing highways that are there.

Given the distances, lack of development potential on Floodplains and in Hidden Valley, and the current maximum speed of our LRVs, the connection between Kitchener and Cambridge really ought to be something more like an inter-urban EMU mainline rail service more than an extension of the existing ION line, or a full BRT line. I can't imagine the existing alignment will be any faster than the combination of Highway 8 and 401 to get to Pinebush station. 

I also have trouble seeing the development potential along Hespeler Road without removing the transport trucks from it first. I imagine we will be seeing both the GO rail service between Guelph and Cambridge  as well as the East/South Cambridge bypass road built before we see any movement on the current ION alignment.

If an EMU is brought into the mix, would that open the possibility of running parallel tracks along the CP spur which could make use of the existing Freeport rail bridge and the existing Riverside rail bridge? And then if EMUs were in the mix, could we sneak in a service between Preston and Guelph running parallel to 124/24?